Covid-19 brought workplace wellbeing to the fore in organisations. The combination of the sudden change in ways of working along with the pandemic led to an urgent need to take employees' physical, emotional and mental health seriously.
In this episode of Making Sense of Work, Bianca Stringuini shares her experience of leading through Covid.
Bianca and Jean discuss
For the past 15 years Bianca has been responsible for creating and implementing Inclusion, Diversity (I&D), Wellbeing, Engagement and Change Management strategies for Fortune 500 companies across multiple markets.
Most recently she led the People Experience and Culture team at KPMG in Singapore. Their aim was to create the best employee value proposition and experience to everyone in an inclusive and human centric manner.
Prior to this Bianca led Inclusion, Diversity and Wellbeing for Visa Asia Pacific, and prior to that, led I&D at JP Morgan Chase, AIG and American Express across Asia. She also headed the I&D practice for Mercer in Asia and has spearheaded strategy, business development and branding, as well as change, talent and performance management projects throughout my career.
Bianca is a certified facilitator in cultural awareness, change management and cultural transformation, an I&D and wellbeing thought leader speaker.
She is also an example of diverse experiences, originally from Brazil, Bianca has lived and worked in Asia, Europe and South America. Her background is in trade and international affairs and her passion continues to be global inclusive growth and impact.
You can find Bianca here:
Experience an Introduction to our Coach Training Programmes with our Free Taster Course: https://courses.baileybalfour.com/course/coach-training-introduction
Sign up to our newsletter to learn more about upcoming programmes: https://baileybalfour.com/subscribe/
Hi everyone. And welcome to making sense of work. I'm Jean Balfour and today I'm really thrilled to be joined by my friend and colleague Bianca Stringuini. Welcome Bianca.Bianca:
Thanks Jean. Thanks for having me. Hello everyone. It's our pleasure to have you today. I'm gonna start by telling you a bit about Bianca and how she comes to be with this. Bianca has been responsible for creating and implementing inclusion, diversity, wellbeing, engagement, and change management strategies for fortune 500. Companies across multiple markets. And that's where I first met Bianco when she was at AIG. Most recently she's led the people experience and culture team at KPMG in Singapore. And their aim was to create the best employee value proposition and experience to everyone in an inclusive and human centric. Manner prior to this Bianca led inclusion, diversity and wellbeing for Visa, Asia Pacific. And prior to that led inclusion and diversity at JP Morgan, chase AIG and American express across Asia. She's also headed the I&D practice for Mercer in Asia and has spearheaded strategy, business development and branding. As well as change talent and performance management projects throughout her career. She's also a certified facilitator in cultural awareness, change management and cultural transformation, and is a well known and respected I D thought leader and speaker. Bianca herself is an example of living diverse experiences. She's originally from Brazil and has lived and worked in Asia, Europe, and south America. And soon to be back in Europe and London, and she has a background in trade and international affairs and her passion continues to be global inclusive growth and impact. And I know that to be true, Bianca. So welcome again.Jean:
Thanks Jean. Thanks for having me.Bianca:
how's work at the moment for you. Well, that's a great question, because I'm on own sabbatical, so work is pretty good right now. um, I think it's a very interesting experience for me. I have work nonstop since I'm 18 and. Uh, without giving my age away, it's been two decades of work, and this is the first time that I'm, I'm actually taking some time off to focus on, my move to London, which is about to happen in the next few months. And I thought that this was a good time to, to do kind of like that career inflection and, and think about exactly what I wanted, my next role as.Jean:
Hmm. Yeah. How I'm wondering how you are finding it, not working. Well, I have my moments, I am known to be a bit of a workaholic, so the first few days I was extremely bored, but it's a little bit when people say when you maternity leave for instance, and people say, oh, you are on vacation and you're really not. So planning a move. Doing all the things that are needed for that. It it's definitely not just not work. Um, and I am enjoying, I heard for, from so many people, that I should enjoy this moment. I'm really going to take my friends' words for it, because I do think it's a privilege to be able to take, you know, a few months off and kind of recenter and really have fun as well. I think that's good good. Good. So you're not working at the moment that you were working until recently. Very, very, when you have a good day at work, what is a good day look like for.Bianca:
I think a good day is one where people collaborate, where I feel like that I engage with different people from across the business, across the region. I love people interaction. So for me, that's a good day. I also like a day where people and my team or me and my peers are working to solve a problem. And you kind of get things done. I really enjoy not just the creativity of the idea, but really that idea of problem solving. I think you do that very well and much better, in a group than alone. So I do think that's a good day in the.Jean:
Hmm. Yeah. I was curious as you were talking about that, I was thinking that one of the things that I see in you is somebody who wants to get things done, and it's just so important for you to kind of make things happen, make the change, make that impact, get things done.Bianca:
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think that we do enough talking in the world, and I think that action. it it's really where lies, where people feel it. And very truthfully my work in inclusion. Diversity equity has always been something that I truly believe in making a different in people's lives. Like really impacting, not at macro level only, but at that, at the micro personal level. So yes, I think getting things done creating impact in people's life. I think that's important. Mm.Jean:
I see that. um, could you then just tell us a bit about how did you come to be doing this work? How did what's your career journey look like?Bianca:
Yeah, I always say I kind of fell into inclusion and diversity. My background is an international. I used to work for the Singapore government in Brazil as, as the manager for their trade office in south America, and used to come to Singapore for training and meetings and, and really fell in love with just the efficiency of, of the country and how things just, you know, worked coming from Brazil was kind of a miraculous thing. Um, and I decided to come and do my MBA in Singapore. And I had a friend that worked in American express and she was like, oh, you know, there. D and I role we've been trying to hire for a very long time. I think we should apply for it. And I really couldn't see it. I was like, I, you know, I don't have any HR background. Why would I apply for this job? And at that time in 2007, I really didn't even know what D and I was, I had to Google it before the interview to prepare. And I was amazed that there was a topic like that, that there were professions. There are people that did that because in. My roles within international trade. That was something that I have felt either by being, you know, the single woman in a trading desk, in the bank, uh, among 16 guys or, um, you know, seeing how conversations of trade would break down because people didn't know each other's cultures or didn't know each other's inflections of time and things like that. So I was really interested in the job and. American express was really an amazing starting point for my career because they were looking for someone that was, I thought that was the first time that I heard it. Someone that was bias free. So they wanted someone that did not have a preconceived notion of what inclusion diversity equity was and what it meant for Asia Pacific. And my past 15. has been this journey of really trying to figure out what it means for each location, for each business that I work with and really trying to always come in with yes, you have experience. Yes. You know, some best practice, but leave that at the door and, really take it as each culture is different and has its own biases and, and positives and things like that. So it's really important. To always come with that open mind. And I think that that first job kind of gave me that, really good start in that thinking. Mm mm.Jean:
And then that led you on, I guess, to AIG andBianca:
yeah, so I, I spent a few years in AMEX and then I kind of wanted to experience. Singapore and Asia. Um, and I went to work for a local company called Far East organization, which is in real estate company, very large here in Singapore. I wanted to have that experience. I went back to kind of business development, and trade. I then had some friends in Mercer who we had kind of worked together to launch their women's network. And they were like, we, we think we should have a DNI practice. And that for me was really interesting to think about it from a consultancy perspective, from a, from a real practice perspective, a commercial, side of it. And I really enjoy also doing extensive research on it. Getting really deep into understanding the topic across HR and HR topics and the linkages to compend to talent management. Even the way that you, write learning and development. And so that was really important for me to kind of galvanize my, I think my HR understanding of the topic and from there, you know, I, I had my, my daughter, I, it was kind of hard to be on the road all the time as a consultant and Southeast Asia. And then I went back to corporate and. Led diversity inclusion in AIG and then in JP Morgan., when I was in JP Morgan, I really started to feel that wellbeing was a topic that needed to, to be part of at least the inclusion conversation. And so was the conversation and impact just starting at that. back in 2015, talking about ESG and how would that play a part in it? So when I joined visa, those were, parts of my role because you need to think about it very holistically. So I evolve my thinking of it to really be around culture and transformation and have heavily, focus on change, manage. And then more recently in AIG, I got to really find like working hours, sustainability reporting in type plan, KPMG, KPMG, KPMG. Yes. KPMG mm-hmm, and I think now the conversation on DNI has really been galvanized at that corporate level with more data, with more reporting. Being more holistic bringing all the topics of how you treat your employees, how you treat the company, the communities you serve, your clients are interested in your demographics, your policies and that's part of RFP. So I, I really think we are, we have evolved over the last 15 years, quite a lot in the topic and just starting to really think of. The whole people experience from the moment people see the ad for your company to the moment that they become an alumni. All those stage points are important and they need to be inclusive. Um, yeah.Jean:
How do you see the connection between inclusion and wellbeing?Bianca:
So for me I always believe that actually wellbeing is probably one of the key points of inclusion because everybody cares about it. You can't say, I care more about than you, or, I think that each, obviously, each dimension of diversity has its own wellbeing, lenses at, you think about, um, women's health, uh, you think about LGBTQ plus mental health. There's a lot of. Ways of cutting it, but ultimately as human beings, we all need self care. We all need to think a little bit more about ourselves and we all should care about others' wellbeing. Mm-hmm I think at that basic human level, mm-hmm when you are a people leader, I always say, you know, it's the, the famous, you know, great power comes great responsibility, right? Like as the people leader, you are respons. For the wellbeing of your team, physical, mental, financial, right? Like you need to be responsible for that. So I think, we need to be more prepared for that. We need to talk more about that as part of leadership. And then people need to also be more, um, owning more their self care and their wellbeing as a very key person for them to perform. And deliver on their jobs. And we talked a lot about diversity and covering for instance. And when you cannot be your true self at work, how much that impacts your performance. And I think that's the same when, if you're not sleeping, if you don't eat properly, if you worry about debt, if you're going through a divorce. it, it, you cannot disassociate that. And then, oh, I'm switching lip in the door and now we perform a hundred percent and then come back to visit at 6:00 PM. That doesn't happen. Right. So it is part of your hope. Hmm. Um, and that's kind of how I see the connection.Jean:
I really like that. I, I think that in a way it's true when we've talked about bringing our whole selves to work, uh, we actually weren't really meaning the part of you. That's not feeling very well today.Bianca:
you know, the good ourselves, just that good part of the, that one is up for it. You know, the other one it's like, oh yeah, Disconnect that one.Jean:
Yeah, I actually, this morning just read a post on LinkedIn that where someone was also saying that actually there's a risk to our wellbeing. If we're in a minority group of bringing our whole selves to work. And because sometimes that can be to exposing and it can affect how we are. And I hadn't really thought about it like that. I think it's a, it's very easy for us just to say, go on, do it be yourself, but actually. If you are not in a safe environment, that actually might be very risky.Bianca:
Absolutely. And that was one of the most interesting things. When I started to implement wellbeing, strategies and programs across the region that the fundamentally it like any other diversity of them in diversity dimension, it's really around, psychological safety if you don't have. The conversation doesn't happen. And it's very important for you to have psychological safety and have an environment where people feel that they can share to talk about suicide. For instance, to talk about depression, to, to come forward, sharing how they are bipolar. For instance, is that almost that dream of showing up naked in the office, right? Like you're really exposing something that. Taught for years to hide it and not talk about it. Mm. So it is a lot of that veil, I think part of your diversity makeup. And I think we can be shame for. and this is all about mental health, but I think physical health, I think even today, like we can be shame for not exercising or not being healthy or, not eating well or so I think that's another thing it's really, how do we work on that judgment and how do we build that personal view of what makes you happy? People always say, what is, you know, one of my biggest pet pees are those lists of the things you have to do. Be healthy. Like top 10, you need dinner. It's always like this list that you have to check one by one and do everything. And sometimes for you to avoid stress is that you have to spend the whole day watching TV and you can chocolate, and that's not going to show up in any of those lists, but that's exactly what works for you. And that's great. And I think people should do it. So I, I think a lot of it is, is really thinking of how do we think. this in a very inclusive way where everyone has their way to achieve their wellbeing. They need to be more aware. They have to have resources and tools to be there, but they have to have ownership of their own self care. And then companies need to create environments where can, they can feel that yes, they can talk about it. They can bring it to work and not be judged for it.Jean:
Yeah. I, I think, it's. leaders, uh, cuz they're at the forefront of that. Aren't they creating the culture. Yeah and deciding that understanding and embodying. Individual nuance, individual difference, and being willing to listen to that in the people they're leading and then enabling them to find the way for them to be their best selves at work. But it's it's individual and every person is different. And the challenge for us is humans. As we see the world through our own lens. So if I think meditation's good, Which I do. Yeah. I can be telling everybody about it, but meditation really doesn't work for everybody. And so, it's really about as a leader, how do I, how do I make sure I'm listening for those individual needs, from the people I'm leading and help them to work that out for themselves?Bianca:
Yeah. And that's why coaching is so brilliant, right? Like, because that's what really good leaders do, right. They're coaching their people to find their own solutions and things that work for them without necessarily. As I said, giving, your own views and the things that work for you. And I, you know, I always say for I'm a, I'm a huge extrovert. So I take a lot of energy, from having people around and I miss sometimes and I need to have my friends gather and all that. My husband is a huge in introvert. So he doesn't enjoy a lot of people around and he needs to have. Just by himself kind of just chilling and, you know, you need to, we can't force on each other, something that it doesn't give us energy. And so I think a lot of that is the same. When you go to the work, why do you expect that subtly, then it, at words, and everybody behaves the same and you know, you can group people understand and, and that's the ultimate really that's the ultimate diversity. It it's personalization. And I think how do. Really think of this as a way of empowering people to make their own decisions and give them, as I kind of said, like the resources and tools for them to do that well, but you know, you don't say this is the right thing to do, or this is the correct thing, or this are people in this dimension of diversity need this thing. Right. Even amongst brothers and sisters, you're going to be different. Imagine within, employees in the company.Jean:
Yeah, it it's interesting. Cuz what, as you were saying that I was thinking that it, it requires a level of trust. between the employee and the employee and, and as an employee, I need to earn that trust actually. So I also need to say, yeah, I'm happy to be an individual and responsible, but I need to also show up and do my job as expected.Bianca:
AB abso absolutely. I always say that the most important ability you should have as a manager's delegation, if you're very good at delegating. It means that you are pretty good at trust because you also have to give the other, that opportunity to own their mistakes, but also shine. If they do a great job and kind of step away from it and say, you know, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't you. And I think that you need to trust people. Again, I always said that, look, I've worked in HR for 15 years and I've never seen anyone hire a child. At least in the companies that I worked in that we didn't have any child labor, we always hired adults. And then suddenly the moment that they are and the company start treating that as bit of kids. And I'm like, no, these are fully capable adults capable of making their decisions. And I think we need to create really that. ownership and responsibility. And that's something that I kind of proud myself in and I think I, I do think that that's the way that you also feel people with IMBU them with that sense of purpose. We've been talking a lot about purpose and I think companies have. Kind of like big mission and vision that they put in the wall and all that. But the purpose is again personal. Yeah. You know, what gets you out of bed every day is going to be different than what gets me out of bed every day. And if I don't find that I have to find that it's not, my manager is going say, oh, this is going to be the reason why you're going to get out of bed. Right. I need to find that. So if I don't have ownership over my work, how do I find the purpose? Mm-hmm I'm doing someone else. Yeah. Yeah.Jean:
Such a kind of shared responsibility in that. Yeah. Yeah. How has the pandemic changed or not changed how we are seeing wellbeing at work?Bianca:
I think it changed quite dramatically. I think it raised the topic to a huge priority because we have seen people burn out tremendously. The other issue was that for a very long time, decades, I worked on flexible work. And, um, I remember back in 2008, actually American expense rollout globally, what we used to call the blue work and it was flexible working across the entire globe, uh, with people working from home and all that. very interesting to, to do that back then and the conversations I had in Japan and Australia and all that. And I think for a very long time, we always believe in the idea of balance, you know, that kind of work and life was sort of 50 50. And I think not only in Asia, in Europe as well and other C. there was this division of, I do work in my office and then the moment that I leave, I kind of leave that self behind and, and go be something else and kind of be at home and be this other person. And that's why we always thought about bringing a whole self to work, because there was this idea that there was no division and it should just be this one person instead of dual personality. That division has ended with the pandemic. And I think for a very long time, going back to that sense of ownership and responsibility, I think especially for the first year, 18 months of the pandemic, I think individuals really found how to put out boundaries to, to make that decision, to make that cut. And that took a toll on people's health. that they didn't stop to eat. They didn't stop to do physical exercise. They worked 18 hours a day. They started working on weekends. That division, which was to somewhat an artificial division, you know, from, from physical location to another physical location, once you didn't have that, oh, lo and behold is about the individual responsibility of creating that decision. But, and we had to literally tell people. You should have a place where you work and you should have a place where you sleep and then another place where you eat. And for some people that was really hard cuz they didn't have the space. So a lot of that I think was what do you do when the boundaries are yours? Right. And what do you do when you really need to focus on output and not present evening? So I know that for a long time we needed to adjust. For instance, like I need to be always online. Cause my boss just seen me online. Yeah. Actually, what, how about we actually do really good goals and people can measure on the output and it doesn't matter when they are doing it and where they are doing it, as long as they're doing it. right. And I think that that's how the pandemic changed the view on wellbeing, because a lot of it just got scrambled in terms of, what do I do now? I also feel that. Because then people started to suffer from more burnout and health issues. And I mean, even bad backs with tables and things like that. I think that then managers started to say, oh, it's not the sick leave that impact my work. Right. It's actually not performing to their full capacities cuz they are flagging because they, can deliver and sudden. It became, oh, actually I need to know what's going on. I need to be better at checking that pulse and having those open conversations and calling out people like you need to start taking care of yourself. Right. Mm-hmm, so I think that that's something that it definitely changed cuz we wouldn't have this conversation sort of two, three years ago. that division was there and people would literally mask that even if they had issues, it was kind of for their home personality, you know? Yeah. It's really interesting. I hadn't really thought about it like that. It was like some sort of. Um, it wasn't even okay. As a leader for me to ask you about how you are, because actually that I might be intruding on your personal life then. Whereas if you're working from home, I can ask how you are because you are at home and you're working. Yeah. Um, and so we somehow created that idea that, that there was that boundary and it was whilst it was physical, actually. It was also artificial. Yeah. Um, yeah, because I've been saying for a long time for decades, You know, we don't touch ourselves out at the door when we touch into the building, you know, we, we are there, but somehow we just didn't see it in that way. Yeah. In the end, all those things were still impacting us all the time. Right? I had a huge insomnia when I was working at visa and eventually I had to say to my boss, I said like, I'm sleeping four hours a day for the past three months. And it starting to take a toll on the way that I'm delivering. And it was like, yeah, I noticed that you lost weight. I noticed that you've been tired, like last type of conversation., it, had nothing to do with the job. I was like, I love the job and all that. And it was things at home and things. So I think you need to be able to have that conversation to say, now I need to, do something that will work for me. Last year when we, after months have blocked down, I really needed to take a break and get away. And I had a conversation with my boss and I said to her, I need to take a week off and go and not do any work. Like I need a week off. And she was so supportive and so understanding. And she's like, yes, let's go. And nobody called me nobody. I think having that conversation and saying with someone from my team asked for a full month off, I said, you know, I have leave. I'm I'm burning out. I need this time off. Absolutely. Like if you can do that, those honest conversations, there's so many things that managers can help people with, but that person has to bring it up. Managers always say managers are not mind readers, so you do need to have that. Possibility for a safe space where I feel like I can tell this to my boss and my boss not going to freak outJean:
it's um, it's such a mutual responsibility is what I'm hearing you say. So clearly we hold this mutually. Just to kind of switch gear a little bit. A lot of the work that you've done has been around change and transition. And I, I know you have some thoughts about how to do this well. So could you share a little bit about your thinking about that?Bianca:
Yeah. I do believe the change is the only constant. I think if you're not changing, you're probably dying. And I think that it's something that, although extremely uncomfortable. I think if you know, the why I think it's very important on my role in KPMG. We really focus a lot on the future of work and thought about, for instance, how the new office spaces would look like, how, why people go to the office. I think when,, when. Designing for instance, hybrid model was really around why you go to the office and not how long, how many days, how many hours, again if you give people parameters of what works best, where, and again, caveat very well that this is for the majority of people, but for you, it might be different. I think you then empower the individual. to embrace that change and make their own, right. So I think it's very important that you start with listening, understanding why you need that change. What, what is the press need? What do people want? Uh, what is their views and kind of ideas around it? Mm-hmm then you build something that is very focused on communicating that, but also empowering them people to say. We're going to give you a field to play in, we're going to make sure that you have all the things you need to play the game, but it's your game. Right? And, and then individuals embrace that change because they will then see it as something that they design it and they can have a, a point. Ownership and flexibility around it, because I think it's very hard when you tell people this is how it's going to be from tomorrow. You had no input, you cannot give any input. And this is it. I mean, you know, that's not changed. That's the military so yeah, right. So I, I think that a lot of times people struggle with change because, they can don't feel that they have the ownership and the agency that is necessary to be part of that change.Jean:
Absolutely agree it's starting with what you were saying at the beginning that if we're not coming back to the why, if something's happening, then why are we doing it in the first place? Even if we're not clear about the why? Um, thenBianca:
if you cannot question, explain it, right. Like I always say that that's my tip for. for biases when people say, oh, how do I know if it's an unconscious bias? I always say, ask why five times. And if by the fifth time people answer you, because I said so, and they regress to being five, then you know that it's a biased decision that actually, you know, you should be able to explain the why and if comfortable with it. And again, people don't have to agree with it. I, I think that's another big part. Yeah. You know, we. Full agreement from a hundred percent of everyone and, you know, doing diversity and inclusion, a lot of things that I have implemented have not been particularly popular with everyone, but you do need to have that sense of, we have discussed this. We have hopped and crowdsourced for the solution for this problem. And this is the minimum viable product kind of thing that we are going to start, and it's not going to be a hundred percent perfect. it needs to be something that we say we are open to tweak this, if it doesn't work, but we are going to commit to do it. Um, and we going to give it enough time to mature. I think a lot of times the problem will change is that people panic. And because you have some adverse reactions to it. People pull out and then do something different and then it doesn't quite work. And then you take it out and you, and then the people on the ground, you're just changing things. Every three months, and then you get to that level of appetite, which a lot of companies have, which is a lot of people that said, ah, change. I've seen it going to come, going to go. I don't really have to get involved. I don't really have to do anything because it's just not right. And that is the biggest, I think the biggest challenge for change is those people that don't get involved because they don't believe that it's going to stick. It's gonna hang around. It's not going to hang around. So you do need to give it enough time and feel that uncomfortableness, and then tweak it, geared there. Take continuous feedback. Do loads of post checks never implement something and kind of walk away. Right? But don't start a hundred percent perfect. Cuz first of all, that doesn't exist. But second of all, it doesn't allow you to then say we we're testing this and now we're going to change it a little bit without saying we are going to kill it. And now we have to have something completely new and different. Yeah. We have to turn around 180. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Jean:
we're coming to the end of our conversation. And one of the things that I actually love to hear you talk about towards the end is what role you think courage plays in work in our journeys with work. And what role has it played for you?Bianca:
I would like to be in a world where it didn't have to be courageous or brave to do your day job, but I do think that. It's still far away. I still remember when I started to work with wellbeing. And the first thing that I realized was that I needed to be very open and upfront about my own battles with mental health, for instance, and having suffered from depression, being someone that, you know, have had a suicide attempt when I was in my early twenties, sharing that very openly. And I got a lot of comments of people. oh, that's so courageous. That's so brave. And I think he has took courage, but I wish it didn't have to be a courageous, and more of a normal, conversation. but obviously I also think that the work with inclusion, the work with diversity, you need to be for a very long time. I heard. Bosses and senior leaders value. I need to meet the client where they're at. And the other day I was, was reading something and I said, someone said, yes, you need to meet them where they at, but you also need to tell them where you expect them to get too. And I do think that that, that takes a lot of courage. Mm-hmm a lot of times you are dealing with people that are extremely more senior than you. and you have to be in a very nice way, extremely brave to tell them in their face is not going to be enough. And obviously, in a great coaching way, try to, to get them there. But I do think that you do need to have that courage. And what I always tell people is that there are no innocent by. If you see something, if you hear something, if you know it's wrong. I mean, remember the challenger, that's one of the things that you study when you look at bias the challenger, accident happened because people didn't say what they thought that was wrong. Yeah. And that happened. Yeah. And think about how many times this happened on every day or how many times you see. with an appalling behavior saying something awful to someone you don't have to be abrasive and aggressive and call them out right there. And then, but have the courage to absolutely say the right thing and call people out. I think that that's really important nowadays, more than everJean:
more than ever more than ever. Yeah. Bianca, I wish for a world where we didn't need courage to talk about our wellbeing and our mental health. two where it's yeah. Felt like it's fine. It's good. It doesn't require courage. Um, well thank you so much for, for your sharing today. I. I think for me, one of the themes I'm going away with is this idea of mutual responsibility for us as individuals and for the organization. And that it's, our wellbeing comes in that mutual sharing. In fact, just to, to what you were saying now, that ability to speak up and say what we think as employees is required in the organization. As much as we. Require our leaders to lead on wellbeing and inclusion and cuz we're all in it together, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you so much for this time.Bianca:
Thanks. Thanks Jean. And thanks everyone for listening. And um, if anyone has questions or comments or ideas, please link up with me, LinkedIn.Jean:
Thank you. And I'll put a, a link to Bianca's LinkedIn page on the show notes. Brilliant. Thank you. And I wish you well on the rest of your sabbatical, have a thank you. I'm enjoying it next time. thank you. Thanks.