Making Sense of Work with Jean Balfour

Ep. #48 A Journey of Starting as a Coach with Carole Lewis

April 10, 2023 Jean Balfour Season 2 Episode 48
Ep. #48 A Journey of Starting as a Coach with Carole Lewis
Making Sense of Work with Jean Balfour
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Making Sense of Work with Jean Balfour
Ep. #48 A Journey of Starting as a Coach with Carole Lewis
Apr 10, 2023 Season 2 Episode 48
Jean Balfour

Have you ever been fascinated by human behavior and pondered over the challenges people face, and how you can genuinely support them, witness positive changes in their lives, and make a difference? 

Meet Carole Lewis - an Executive Communications Coach and Bailey Balfour's faculty trainer. In this episode, she shares her passion for coaching, from her journey of starting from scratch, and relocating to a new country, to mastering different coaching methodologies to refine her craft.

Carole Lewis and Jean discuss: 

  1. What was her experience of training as a coach
  2. Why coaching gives her so much energy 
  3. Building a coaching business from ground up  
  4. The concept of ontological coaching

Meet Carole Lewis 
Carole is an internationally certified professional coach with over twenty-five years of experience in coaching, facilitation, and consulting. She specializes in supporting senior leaders and C-Suite executives in developing executive presence and highly effective interpersonal and communication skills. 

She helps leaders communicate with clarity, confidence, and conviction so that they can build strong teams and thriving organizations that drive business results. Her coaching work has included working with multi-national corporations and coaching over 40 different globally based nationalities. 

This has given her a keen understanding of what is required to successfully connect to, communicate with, and inspire people in multi-national organizations with diverse teams. Having lived in Hong Kong since 1997, Carole’s skills, passion, and energy for developing leaders, as well as her in-depth knowledge and experience of the local Hong Kong culture have made her a sought-after coach and facilitator

Check out Carole’s reading recommendations: 

  1. Conversational Intelligence: How Great Leaders Build Trust and Get Extraordinary Results: https://www.amazon.com/Conversational-Intelligence-Leaders-Extraordinary-Results/dp/1629561436
  2. Change or Die: The Three Keys to Change at Work and in Life: https://www.amazon.com/Change-Die-Three-Keys-Work/dp/0061373672

Experience an Introduction to our Coach Training Programmes with our Free Taster Course: https://courses.baileybalfour.com/course/coach-training-introduction

Sign up to our newsletter to learn more about upcoming programmes: https://baileybalfour.com/subscribe/

Show Notes Transcript

Have you ever been fascinated by human behavior and pondered over the challenges people face, and how you can genuinely support them, witness positive changes in their lives, and make a difference? 

Meet Carole Lewis - an Executive Communications Coach and Bailey Balfour's faculty trainer. In this episode, she shares her passion for coaching, from her journey of starting from scratch, and relocating to a new country, to mastering different coaching methodologies to refine her craft.

Carole Lewis and Jean discuss: 

  1. What was her experience of training as a coach
  2. Why coaching gives her so much energy 
  3. Building a coaching business from ground up  
  4. The concept of ontological coaching

Meet Carole Lewis 
Carole is an internationally certified professional coach with over twenty-five years of experience in coaching, facilitation, and consulting. She specializes in supporting senior leaders and C-Suite executives in developing executive presence and highly effective interpersonal and communication skills. 

She helps leaders communicate with clarity, confidence, and conviction so that they can build strong teams and thriving organizations that drive business results. Her coaching work has included working with multi-national corporations and coaching over 40 different globally based nationalities. 

This has given her a keen understanding of what is required to successfully connect to, communicate with, and inspire people in multi-national organizations with diverse teams. Having lived in Hong Kong since 1997, Carole’s skills, passion, and energy for developing leaders, as well as her in-depth knowledge and experience of the local Hong Kong culture have made her a sought-after coach and facilitator

Check out Carole’s reading recommendations: 

  1. Conversational Intelligence: How Great Leaders Build Trust and Get Extraordinary Results: https://www.amazon.com/Conversational-Intelligence-Leaders-Extraordinary-Results/dp/1629561436
  2. Change or Die: The Three Keys to Change at Work and in Life: https://www.amazon.com/Change-Die-Three-Keys-Work/dp/0061373672

Experience an Introduction to our Coach Training Programmes with our Free Taster Course: https://courses.baileybalfour.com/course/coach-training-introduction

Sign up to our newsletter to learn more about upcoming programmes: https://baileybalfour.com/subscribe/

Jean:

Hi everyone, and welcome to Making Sense of Work. I am thrilled to be joined today by Carol Lewis. Carol is an executive communications coach and she's also part of our faculty training ICF accredited coaches here at Bailey Belfour. Welcome Carol to the podcast.

Carole:

Thank you Jean. Really great to be here with you.

Jean:

I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Carole:

Me too. Me too.

Jean:

Carol is an internationally certified professional coach with over 25 years of experience in coaching, facilitation, and consulting. She specializes in supporting senior leaders and C-suite executives in developing executive presence and in developing highly effective interpersonal and communication skills. She helps leaders communicate with clarity. With confidence and with conviction so that they can build strong teams and thriving organizations that drive business results. Carol's lived in Hong Kong since 1997 and has a passion and energy for developing leaders as well as an in-depth knowledge and experience of local Hong Kong culture. So thanks Carol. Welcome again today.

Carole:

Thank you. Thank you.

Jean:

Carol, how's the work at the moment?

Carole:

Well actually work is really good at the moment. I'm, I'm very happy to say that I'm, I feel like I'm at a very good place at the moment. I've got a lovely balance of work that I'm really enjoying. So I have a number of coaching clients who I'm finding very interesting. Um, love working with them. And then of course, doing the mentoring and the workshop delivery for Bailey Balfour, which I also very much enjoy. And I'm also working on a project of developing an online communications course. So at the moment, it just feels like a really good balance of work that I'm actually enjoying all of that, and it hasn't always been that way. Sometimes I'm doing work that I'm not enjoying so much. So that's, yeah, really nice right now.

Jean:

Yeah. Good. And in that, when you have a really good day at work, what does that involve? It sounds like you're pretty close to that now, but what does that look like?

Carole:

Yeah, I am, but I wouldn't say that is every single day. So for me, a good day is when I am connecting with people. So that would be a day of coaching. It might be coaching, mentoring, running the workshops, um, even meeting potential clients and even in and meeting with people, in person is lovely, but on Zoom is also okay. So. I enjoy meeting and connecting with people. To me that gives me energy and that would be a good day for me versus maybe other days where it's admin stuff that needs to be done. Still important, still needs to be done, but not my favorite kind of day.

Jean:

Hmm, I can feel your energy around the people's side of your business, Carol, and I guess that's really aligned with the coaching work you do, which is also about helping people connect and communicate well with people. In in their working lives.

Carole:

Yes. Yeah, I, I love to do it, so I love to support other people to do that as well.

Jean:

Yeah. Great. And it would be lovely if you could tell us a bit about how you came to do that. What's this journey of your career to this point?

Carole:

Yeah, so I, I was in training for many, many years. started working in training. Before I left Canada, I was an an internal corporate trainer. and then when I moved to Hong Kong, I was also in a training role. I was actually working for the Polytechnic University here, but delivering their corporate programs, corporate communication programs. And I love training and, I've continued to trained for many years. Um, I, I get excited about people learning. The thing was though, I started to feel at some point like, Training, there were those times when you're not quite sure of the impact that it's had. So I would have a group of 10, 20, 30 people and I'd leave thinking, okay, did I really reach all of those people? You know, did that really make a difference for them? So as I was starting to feel that way, I sort of discovered this thing called coaching and found it very appealing in the sense that you get to work with somebody. Often one-on-one. There can be group coaching, but one-on-one where it's very tailored for that person. and you really get to work with that person and you know, you know when it's making an impact and it's, and if it's not, then you change something. Right? So it's tailored for them. So this whole idea of. Of tailoring something and making the impact really appealed. I decided to get trained as a coach. I thought that sounds good. So this was in 2006 and I looked into coach training. There wasn't any available in Hong Kong, but I went to Singapore. I got my first coach training, the first of many coach trainings I have. attended and did my initial course to get to work towards my certification, and at that time I was working at the Polytechnic University still, but they were going through some changes. The, the corporate department I was working for, going through some changes, so I just decided to make a shift and actually decided right then that I would stop that work and open up my own coaching training business and have now been running that since 2006.

Jean:

Oh wow. So you started in a way Not long after me. It was 2001.

Carole:

All right.

Jean:

you were an, you were an early coach then, because in those days there was not much coach training, as you were saying. There was. There was none in Hong Kong at that point, and it was really early on in our profession in many ways.

Carole:

Yes. And in fact it was, it was really quite early on in Hong Kong at the time when I got trained. Many people did not know what coaching was. Even within organizations, they'd say to me, you know, I've heard of this coaching thing. What is it? So yes, it did feel very early on. Early. But exciting,

Jean:

Yeah. It's amazing how far we've come, actually.

Carole:

it really is. Yes. Yeah.

Jean:

space of time. Um, so you've told us a little bit in a way about how you've, how you came to coaching, but I know you also have a real deep passion for it. Could you share a little bit about. What is it about coaching that means so much to you? That gives you so much energy?

Carole:

I think it is that idea that, you know, you get to, to really know a person and know what motivates them. Maybe know what challenges them and, and really support that person and see the changes, see the differences that it can make. and just for me, the whole fascination of the human behavior. And how we work or don't work, and, what we can do to help ourselves not just be more effective, maybe for a corporate sense there, there's that part of it. But basically to help ourselves have better lives, you know, better quality of life and, and feel better. And I've always been a believer in the ripple effect of coaching. So I think if I can coach one person and, and that person can be. More effective, more fulfilled, happier, that that will ripple out and that'll ripple out their, their teams, the organizations they're working with, their family. I mean, it doesn't stop. So I love that idea that I can be a catalyst for that and, and support people with their growth.

Jean:

Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, I, I love that idea of the ripple effect, and you and I will have both had many times people come to coaching or come to coach training, in fact, and talk about the impact it's had on their whole lives, on their relationships at home, on their family, on their friends. You know, that that impact, that ripple effect is.

Carole:

Yeah, I was actually just speaking to an organization this morning. I'm about to start a second round of coaching with the client, and they were talking about how that client has been sharing what she has learned through the coaching with her team. and, I just thought, oh, how fantastic. That's, that's rippling

Jean:

It's all part of that

Carole:

that's going out there. Yeah.

Jean:

Yeah. And you mentioned that you've done many different types of coach training. what's been your experience of that being in a way you are on the teaching of coach training side, but what's been the experience of being on the other side as a learner in the coach?

Carole:

well, I, I mean, I love being a learner, It's, it's something I'm, I. Passionate about the whole idea of learning. So whether it's looking at how I can help other people learn or learning myself, so I love that side of actually learning it. And I remember the very first coach training course that I took in Singapore. I just was so thrilled with being on the other side, and not delivering training, but actually getting to be a learner myself and to learn something that was so new to me. And, and in a way counterintuitive, you know, learning our coaching is don't give advice and step back and all that was hard. So I loved that process of learning something new. You know, feeling like I'm getting it or not. Time is feeling like I'm not getting it. and gradually, improving that.

Jean:

Could you say a bit more about that counterintuitive side of it? Because we hear this a lot on coach training that people say, wow, you know, that it doesn't feel quite natural at the beginning. Could you share a bit more about that?

Carole:

Sure. Yeah. So I mean, I certainly see it in the coach training. I see many people come in and say, oh, I've been coaching for years. And then once they learn more about coaching, they say, oh, maybe I haven't been coaching for years. And I, I think I was the same when I went into coach training, you know, I thought, oh, I'm probably good at helping people and, then suddenly realize it's not giving solutions. But I actually think over the years that I've been coaching, I, I get a deeper and deeper understanding of that. it's one of those, to me it's one of those things that we learn in layers. So it's more than just, okay, here's my solution, I'll give it to you. It's, really having the presence to allow the space for the client to really come up with their own solutions. And so my initial coach training was like, oh yeah, don't provide solutions. And okay, I thought I had it, you know, that's it. But as I went on with my coach training and got into training more for myself to develop my presence, my intuition, things like that, it became even more apparent and the learning became deeper about providing that space for the client.

Jean:

Yeah. I really resonate with that, Carol. I've, I've noticed that myself. You know, I was even, I was with a, a group of our alumni last night and. I noticed in myself that in the past I would've jumped in and said, this is how I see it. And I just stayed a lot longer with this person who was actually seeking advice by not giving advice, and just kept going with their wisdom. And in the end, they really didn't need anything. I had to.

Carole:

Yes,

Jean:

really didn't need me at all except to hold the space and to be curious and to help them think for themselves in

Carole:

Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? And, and when I, and I've had those moments in coaching when we, we hold back and it all comes together and you think, I'm so glad I held back there,

Jean:

Yeah. Yes. Cause the temptation is not to, I'm a surprise that after all these years coaching, I still feel that pull, that internal pull. But it's still there. It's very strong. It's very powerful. Yeah.

Carole:

That's why I think for me it's that type of learning is a layered learning. We don't just get it and wanna go and I will continue learning about that. It doesn't stop either. That's also the exciting thing about learning to coach. It's an ongoing journey that we can always add to.

Jean:

Yeah. Never ends. Does that, one of the things that you've done successfully, and I know for some of our listeners as a reality, is you've built a coaching business and it would be lovely if you could share a bit about, you know, your perspective on that and how to build a business as a coach.

Carole:

yeah, so I. I'm not sure that I'm sort of a, a textbook example or a great example of how to go about building a coaching business. So when I first went into setting up my coaching business, to be honest, I knew nothing about it. I really didn't know anything about coaching. I just started it and I knew nothing about running a business either. but just decided to go for it and. So I don't, don't know that that's the best way to go into it, but it is what I did and I learned a lot along the way. So I certainly learned that running my own business was harder than I thought it was going to be. but then so was coaching. So everything was hard and, all added to the interest. but some things that I learned along the way about setting up, I'm running my own business for me is that it's really about building connections. With people, and that goes with what's important to me as well. So, you know, I was entering a new industry that I didn't know anything about and didn't know anyone in that industry. So it was important to build connections, not only with people who may become potential clients. Sure. But I built, I spent time building connections with other coaches and people who didn't know about the industry. and those people have helped me really learn and grow and develop and supported. And some of those people who I met when I very first went into coaching, I'm, I'm still in contact with them now. And, I found that's been a great support in running my business. You know, whether it's a business angle or a coaching angle or, you know, whatever it is that I'm dealing with at the moment. and then realizing that there's a whole lot more to running a coaching business than just the coaching. There is the admin, there's the marketing, there's the strategy, all of that stuff that I probably hadn't considered ahead of time.

Jean:

Yeah. But one of the things that I'm hearing you say, it's almost like it's communities or circles of communities that are what helps us build the business. It's the, community that we're in, that are our coaches, that are colleagues and peers, and then there's the community of clients, that are kind of there for us to build connections and relationships with. But it is such a people business that it is about having those communities, those circles, those connections that are there for us to help us on that journey.

Carole:

It really is. I, I really see it like that. It's those connections to help us on the journey. And that's support. I mean, when we're working as a coach, we're often, we're working alone. I mean, we work with our clients, right? But we. All of our, work other than with the clients is sort of alone time preparing for that, you know, getting those clients, doing the marketing. So having those support groups for me has been incredibly helpful and, certainly kept me going, I think through the hard times and made it fun. There has to be some enjoyment to doing it as well.

Jean:

Yeah. And there's also, things that I've experienced of, you know, sometimes a client will come and I'm not the right coach for them, but that community that's meant, I've been easily able to say, here's somebody who I would recommend to that, or people I can, offer, offer up, really. And I think that's also good for our relationships with the clients who are looking for coaches. So,

Carole:

having the connections or even the, the, you know, when the situations, if a situation comes up where coaching is not the right thing for that person and we, we would, you know, refer on to somebody else. Again, I have a, you know, contacts who, who I know people I can turn to, to check in on that, people to ask for, for support. Yeah.

Jean:

So over the last 18 months, you've been doing some training in something called Ontological coaching, and I'm really intrigued about this. I've heard you talk little bits about it and I think it would be interesting for others as well. If you could share a bit about what is this mystery, this mystery of on ontology. What does it mean and how does it relate to coaching?

Carole:

Yeah. Yeah. I know. Most people haven't heard of that. And when I, if I ever used the word ontology, like what is that? so ontology is actually the study of the way of being from what I understand. So when we look at ontological coaching,, it's about coaching around our way of being. So when I say way of being, the way I explain it to my clients is that it's about what's happening with us in the moment, and generally that's what's happening on the inside of us. So whatever happens on the inside of us impacts how we behave on the outside. I do leadership, communications, coaching, so the way that we communicate and actually speak out loud, well that all is based on what's going on on the inside of. and in the ontological coaching we specifically look at three areas. So it's either language and that's the language that's possibly coming out of our mouths, you know, the, the language we actually use, but it could also be the language that we're using with ourselves. Something that's going on inside of our own heads. the example I like to share is if somebody is sitting in a meeting saying to themselves, oh no, I have nothing valuable to add here. Everyone else is so smart and I have nothing to add. Guess what? It's gonna be really hard to come up with something valuable to add. So it's that internal language that affects us. So that's the first part is language. And then the second part is emotions. The second area we look at is emotions. And again, the way that we are feeling actually moods and emotions, the way that we are feeling will very much impact how we behave. So we explore emotions and what's happening with that and possibly bringing in other emotions. and then the third area is the physical body. So the physical body is actually a really fascinating area in coaching and how we hold our body, the posture that we hold our body in, and how much impact that can have on the way that we are thinking and how we feel, and then how we behave. that helps to, to look at all of those areas and, discover more about the way of being and shifts that we can make in that to be more effective, more effective communicators and more effective leaders as well.

Jean:

Yeah, I can really see that connection strongly. as you were talking about, I was thinking that really, when coaching started, we only focused on thoughts. We focused on what people were thinking and how to shift mindset or thoughts. And of course we've seen that that has some benefit, but there are massive limitations on that. And what you are describing is that the limitations are because how we are feeling emotionally or how we are physically showing up our own internal stories and dialogues of are impacting it. It's the whole story. It's the. Us that's impacting our ability to lead effectively or to be an effective colleague or to be an effective parent. And so I'm hearing you say that when you are taking an on logical approach, I guess you are curious with your client about all of that, the whole of the person in that way.

Carole:

Absolutely. It really is. it's a very holistic approach. So exploring all of that, and not just all of the areas, the language, emotions, and the physical body, but how those entwine are entwined. Because we, we really can't explore one without exploring the other. No. There, there is a connection between them. And so, for instance, if I'm working with a client and we're doing some, you know, possible experimenting with, just adjusting posture, we also check in, okay, how's the thinking now? How's the emotions now? So it, it all comes back and gets connected and, and all creates our way of being.

Jean:

And you mentioned a bit briefly, but how does this, um, how does this help leaders? In the way that they're leading and showing up as a leader.

Carole:

Yeah. So I really believe if, leaders can be more aware of what is going on for them in those areas, you know, we can put it into those areas. so how they are thinking, internal dialogue, what they're feeling and their physical body. If they can be more aware of that, that's going to help them to be more resourceful as a leader. You know, they can check in. Are they, is there internal dialogue or even even language they support speak? Is that supporting their team? Is it supporting them when they're interacting with their team or could there be changes there and it, and it doesn't have to be. Personality change,, they can often be very small changes. And also the way they're feeling, you know, what kind of moods are they taking into a meeting? The way that they are feeling inside is going to impact the team. That's whether they like it or not. And sometimes I've had leaders say, well, I'm pretty good at hiding my emotions. Well, you might be but it's gonna show up. You know, people pick up the emotions. And then just physical body as well, like a physical presence. How is that impacting how they're showing up? Um, it all comes together and it's, I, I think more and more leaders are realizing now that this kind of exploration is really valuable for them. It's, it's not just, you know, what do you say to a team and, you know, how do you structure a team? It's, it's this type of exploration that is becoming more recognized as being so valuable.

Jean:

I think particularly for leaders, when things are challenging. So I think on a good day it kind of doesn't matter so much in a way, but when things are challenging or there's pressure or there's a crisis, which at the moment we are seeing so often in organizations. Need leaders needing to pivot that ability, I guess, to know yourself and to know to feel into your own. Resilience and knowledge and awareness of self makes that easier in those situations to react. Respond from a good place.

Carole:

Yes, yes. After I speak to my clients about the capabilities versus the capacity, so they may have the capability, a leader has the capability to know how to respond, you know, and what to do, but that's kind of all in the head. They, they know it and technically, But it's about having the capacity in the moment in those crisis moments in that, you know, meeting that right there on the spot. Do they actually have the capacity to bring in what they know and be able to respond from that way? And that's where we need to move beyond just what's happening in the head, what's just happening in language. That's where we move into the body and the emotions to help support. And then that's what can make a real differe.

Jean:

That's amazing. I can hear that. I guess actually felt you, as you were talking about capacity, sort of thinking, noticing my own capacity, so really makes a lot of sense to me. Cal, thank you. That's really interesting. so let's move on from coaching now and, talk about a few other things. I wonder if you could share, from your career story and your career journey, a critical career moment, something that's happened to you along the way, and what you learned from it.

Carole:

Um, sure. Yes, it was, well, it was well before I got into coaching. It's probably been critical moments in coaching as well. But well before that I was working in Canada. I worked for a large retail chain, and I had worked for them since I was 17 years old. So very much made my way up from just, you know, on the shop floor as a bookshop, so on the shop floor to managing shops, leading teams, and then into the training department. So, worked there for 14 years, actually, the company got sold and suddenly I was made redundant. And at that time I was, you know, I'd sort of felt like I'd had a whole career. I'd been there for 14 years with him. I was young. I thought 14 years was a career. So it was really something quite big for me to deal with at the time, but I was still young and adventurous. So I decided that rather than just getting another job, I was going to take some time out. So I did, I took time out, I traveled and that eventually led me to moving to Hong. And which is what got me here back in 1997. So really that whole experience helped me grow up. It really did. It, it made me grow up, learn to be dependent, independent, learn to develop relationships in the way I hadn't before, and learn to go out and meet new people from all kinds of different backgrounds and start to build those connections that I've, that I've talked about that I loved. and then learn to move to Hong Kong. I didn't know anybody when I moved here. So again, setting up, and I think what that did was when it came to setting up my coaching business and going into this completely new industry that at the time I didn't know anything about. I drawn those skills that I had learned. Of being able to go out, meet new people, sort of think, okay, well I'm in this new place. How am I going to deal with this new place and establish myself? So it was one of those blessings in disguise really. and it really was a real turning point in my career to have had that experience.

Jean:

Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it, cuz I, that we all need, I think, sometimes a disruption to help us to kind of step out of that space. And, and I, as you, as you're talking, I'm thinking probably that job was very comfortable in a way, you know, very. But the disruption has served you so well in your career.

Carole:

yes. yes. It is often those biggest disruptions that actually really lead to our growing, and they don't feel like it at the time.

Jean:

No,

Carole:

at the time, we think, what am I gonna do? Yeah. Yeah. But they really do. And so when I'm working with clients now and they often come to me and tell me they've, you know, maybe going through something similar. again, not offering advice, but holding that is helped me hold the space for them. To be able to discover their next steps.

Jean:

Yeah, for sure. Oh, that's amazing. A link to that, have you ever, or do you often, experience imposter syndrome and how do you handle it when it shows up?

Carole:

oh yes. All the time. Um, especially when I first started coaching. I mean, I really would. I sort of had, had gone into to this field I knew nothing about and setting my own business and I'd be sitting in meetings thinking, ah, what am I doing here? And then when I got into Dev, really delivering leadership training, you know, along with the coaching, delivering leadership training. And I remember showing up at some, you know, some pretty big venues with large groups of people. You know, maybe a hundred people of very senior level people that I was going to present to. And I would have that moment thinking, oh me, why am I doing this? But gradually have learned to deal with that. I won't say it, you know, it's not completely dark. Gone, still have those moments, but I, I think what, what I know now is that I have done many things in my career that I never thought I would be doing. Or I never thought I could do, I wouldn't imagine that. And so now I know it's okay. You know, it's okay if I haven't done it before or if, or if this feels really big to me. Um, I can do this. I've done those other things before. and I think the other thing that has helped me with this is, As I have become more confident in myself when I'm speaking to, you know, say speaking to a potential client about some coaching, or if I was speaking about some training work, they wanted to do something, then having the confidence to, to ask the questions. and know what is needed. And so in a way it takes confidence to ask those, but then that also gives more confidence because I'm clear about what I'm doing. Maybe when I first started, I would just sort of say, oh yes, yes, okay. And not actually get all the details. And then that was even worse going into it. So sort of the confidence helps build the confidence,

Jean:

.Yeah. I really recognize that actually. I really recognize that sense of, once you do something and you learn from it, but those early stages, it's scary. It's really scary when you're doing things for the first time and that sense of who am I to be doing this

Carole:

yes, yes. And there must be so many other people out there who can do this, or maybe they're doing this better than me. I think that was one of the other things I really had to learn along the way as well, is don't compare myself to others. We can spend all day comparing ourselves to how others do it, and maybe they do it better or they do this or that, but do it in my way And stop the comparing

Jean:

Yeah. Yeah, because of course you bring something new and fresh to it that's coming from your space. Yeah. Yeah. That's so important.

Carole:

Yes.

Jean:

Carol, we're coming to the end of our conversation, and one of the things that was always good is to hear if you have any books or podcasts or TED talks or anything that you particularly draw value from.

Carole:

so I love reading, so it's really hard to

Jean:

We

Carole:

and I always, I'm, I'm always reading something, but you know, one, one book that has really stood out for me, and I have read this book over and over and I was just looking at it today, and we'll pick it up again. It's a book called Follow Your Heart. And it's by a guy called Andrew Matthews. It's a little bit older now, and it's just little, little tidbits of information with cartoons and it's written quite lightly and it just takes you through reflecting on some different things and about following your heart. And just, yeah, following what you want to do. And it was a great reminder. I've read a few of his other books and those were all also good, but that one in particular stood out for me. So it always sort of brings a smile to my face when I read that one. Um, other ones that I love as well is our, presence by Amy Cudi.

Jean:

Oh yeah. Very good folks.

Carole:

very much about the, the body. And that, how that impacts what we're doing. I enjoyed reading Conversational Intelligence, Judith Glaser another great one. and I read one many years ago that really stood out for me and it was called Change or Die. And,it's about how people are willing or not willing to change. Sometimes the stakes are really high and they're just not willing to change. And, it's by Alan Deutchman and he goes through some examples, some very extreme examples of how people have been able to change and what it actually takes. And, yeah, it's not someone just telling them what to do.

Jean:

Yeah. That's amazing. It has to come with it from within, I

Carole:

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So yes tho those have been just part of my reading list over the years. Um, certainly many more. There

Jean:

Yeah, it sounds like reading is part of following your heart. For you, it's, it's at the heart of your learning journey. Carol, thank you so much for sharing your journey and your learning with us today. I am, really intrigued about ontological coaching and I love this idea that we help people sit with their whole of who they are and I. encourage everyone to be, even just as you're listening today, to begin to become a bit more aware of what's happening physically, what's happening emotionally, what am I thinking? What am I saying? And yeah, thank you for sharing that. And thank you for following your heart, which it sounds like you did

Carole:

Yes. Thank you, Jean. Really been a pleasure to speak to you today.

Jean:

great. Thanks, Carol.