hi everyone, and welcome to Making Sense of Work. I'm really delighted to introduce you today to Son Patel. Son, welcome. Hello. It's lovely to be here. Thank you, Jean. Great. It's really lovely to have you here. We, we first met when you started training as a coach. I guess about two years ago now. Was it? It is. It is. More or less Exactly then that's right. And it's been a fascinating journey. Great lemme start by telling you a bit about Son. She is managing Director Asia for Quant, a global advertising technology company. She also holds board and advisory roles. Son Will has over 20 years experience working for large global brands across high growth, disruptive technologies, including e-commerce, digital gaming, social media, cloud, and many more. She has taken her. Flair for advertising to the startup world and co-founded an agency in Vietnam alongside her own consultancy company, and she's also mentored early stage startups and advisors on high growth potential. Sono is passionate in driving female entrepreneurship and coaching at all levels in the talent. Through her ACC certification from the International Coaching Federation, and she's committed to amplifying talent in the workplace. Welcome son. It is wonderful to be here again. And, uh, thank you very much. You summarized, my career really well, so thank you, My pleasure. How's work at the moment? Interesting. And I'll tell you why, well, obviously we're going through such a backdrop of economic tensions obviously Ukraine and so we obviously, we have many clients all over the world. So there are some sort of sympathies around what has happened recently and the tensions that have happened, but I. You know what, I kind of fundamentally put it down to two things. So I, if you look at the s and p 500, six out of the 10, companies, the top 10 companies have something to do with advertising. Because it's the money that flows into advertising that actually is the foundation of all the innovation that we see. And so we are seeing a bit of, a bit of a blur If you, you know, if you notice, uh, you know, the share price of meta face, which is Facebook, Google, and so forth, it's a bit of a blur as to what's happening. So I think that's what I mean by interesting. We have a low visibility or line of sight as to what might happen in the next two quarters. So that's what I mean by the term interesting and usually advertising as a barometer or bellweather of what is likely to happen. So it looks a little bit, rainy rather than sunny. Right now. Felix is a woman. Yeah, I, I think I saw her yesterday that. Profits have just really plummeted or matters. Profits have really plummeted in the last year. Really. It's been going on a while, hasn't it? But it's really interesting. Yeah, gene, you're right to pick up on that. And I'm, I'm not gonna get into technical cuz uh, I could go down a long path and you'll, you'll have a hard time trying to stop me, articulating it. But I, there's been a lot of changes. Um, so we as consumers, Often go into Mary's websites, into our mobile phones, and we do things right with our phones, and some of that data is shared. Apple restricted the sharing of that data based on privacy concerns, which is the right thing to do. What has happened is Facebook used to leverage meta, used to leverage a lot of these insights so that they could actually help advertisers find the right type of audiences, um, because they can't do that anymore. obviously, uh, they're not, they've not being as good as being able to decipher that. So, uh, advertiser realized we need to look at different technology because we're not seeing the same roi, which is probably why share prices have gone down somewhat. So, uh, yeah, work is interesting at the moment. I bet it's a good example of how. Um, we need to be prepared to pivot and innovate at any point, I think, isn't it? It's that kind of sense, I guess for an organization like Meso, that things were comfortable, they knew how it worked, it was happening. And one change, which I agree with you, was the right change for our personal privacy has such a massive impact on an organiz. which then requires them to pivot in some way. Absolutely, absolutely. I think growth hacking is going to come back to even some of the larger companies who have probably not had to do much of that given, um, the heft and power they have. So I think we're living in some really interesting times. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Good. How about for you personally? When you have a good day at work, what does that look like? Oh, I, I'm, I've been blessed., I, I think a good day at work for me, having started in this company, three me years ago, two months before the pandemic started, which was, uh, in itself probably a H B R case study I'd like to write, um, is time with the team. That team camaraderie for me is the epitome of a good day. Just the banter in the office, the ability to come up with a problem that we have as a team, whether it's, you know, with a particular client or the way that our infrastructure is operating or anything, um, and solving for that. So having the problem is not necessarily a good day at work, but actually solving for it is. So I think for me, that that is what is a good day. Um, a team win always helps. So we've been very blessed. The team has won three awards this quarter in the great work that they do. So, um, I think that has really upped the banter and the, and the commod. So actually the office atmosphere is fantastic right now. It's really intriguing. because I read some of the reviews that people have written about you on your LinkedIn profile and the one that that struck me was someone saying that you are one of those rare business leaders who are able to drive both business results and maintain a person-centric leadership approach. Is just what you've just described actually, that, that it's for you, it's about the team and the win and, and that's fantastic. We're bringing together of. No Jean. I look at business in a way. So I came from the tech side, in fact, we'll, you know, we can bring it up, but I actually studied law, so I do, we'll have a conversation about why I'm here today, but, um, what has been the most interesting sign on the tech side is the, the concept of reverse engineering. You know, we look at that from a technical point of view. I look at that from a team point of view. If I've been given a. The team and I have been given a goal. Um, what are we going to do to actually hack towards that goal? We know it's an ostentatious goal cuz that usually is the case. Every quarter we are going to have that conversation, but how do we actually reverse engineer how we're gonna get to that goal? And I think that, uh, builds up a team rapport approach, but it also builds up. The ability to look at gap analysis. Okay, we might not be, we're 20% away from this goal. What are we gonna do to try and get to that 20%? And I, I believe that having that team mentorship and leadership and collaboration drives business results. We, we don't tend to put enough effort on it. I, I guess the best way to explain this is Jean, you know, you and I both held, many positions, throughout our lives. We spend that much time, three to six months in hiring. Beyond that, what do we actually do with the individual that then is onboarding into the, into the company? Mm-hmm. we don't tend to spend that much time actually de, you know, dedicating that much time into, um, building that person up or building them up alongside the team. So I, I take that approach in the way that I, um, manage and the way that I like to hack towards any business. Great. It's that idea that if we are hiring bright, intelligent people into organizations, then when they're with us, we lead in a way that assumes that they're bright, intelligent people are capable. You started talking about the beginning of your career, so it would be lovely if you could share a bit about how you came to be here. What was your career journey to this point? Sure. I'd be very succinct. I studied law, and wanted to do law. Worked at a law firm in the USA after my, uh, degree. Uh, about a year and a half. It was an entertainment law firm. So there's quite a few stories that I can share at some point. But what was interesting, I had the partner, speak to me that was a paralegal then, and he said, you have, you have such a rare talent to, to connect with individuals., but the role of a lawyer is predominantly. Actually reading and coming up with a narrative, and you don't actually spend that much time in an auditorium, in the law courts essentially, canvasing that because a, a lot of deals are made Prior to that, he said, well, have you ever considered looking at something else? It was probably the best advice you ever got in terms of pivoting much to the demise of my parents' eyes. Um, not becoming a lawyer, but I ended up working for. I ended up working for an American, oil and production company called Hess, and it was around the time there was a lot of gas deregulation happening in the uk. So ended up somehow, doing business analysis. I ended up in the marketing department looking at some of the business. And how we could, uh, automate some of that, but also how we could help bring new discoveries in. Anyway, that's, that's my journey into marketing. And then I'll fast forward into how did I get into this particular area, because this is technical. Um, this is technology advertising, which is a little different and. Honestly, I think a serendipity pretty much hit me and it all started with a sandwich. that rare meal that you would have at lunchtime in a UK office is pretty much a two slices of bread and something in between. I went to actually pick up a sandwich and I caught up with an, an old colleague of mine who worked in a different department at Orange Telecoms, and she was. I've never seen her so happy. She was like talking about this new company she had joined about this new technology, which was about distributed, uh, advertising and technical buyers and sellers. I couldn't make any sense of it, and I just thought, what is this nonsense? I don't get it. I don't understand it. So we decided to have lunch. Um, and she explained it to me and I realized that this was actually what is happening in the oil and gas market, but in. Um, and I got interested in this. And so that one conversation changed my entire remainder of my life because I ended up moving to Singapore after working for a, a firm that was acquired by Yahoo called Righted, and that was this journey into advertising, which parachuted me after a year and a half in London, which is where I'm from. Into Singapore heading up two markets, right, which was Singapore for the rest of Southeast Asia and then Hong Kong for the rest of, um, north Asia. And at that sandwich was probably the cheapest way that I've changed my life and course. Um, but it was one of the most fundamental things. I'll never forget it because it literally changed the destiny of my. Hmm. It sounds like it kind of lit you up. It got you intellectually and emotionally curious in that moment. It absolutely did. Um, I think Curiosity's been a key part of why I even studied law, and I think most people, you know, when we study degrees, we don't real realize the technical transference of those skills in any role. Mm-hmm. and believe that that was what really changed the, the ecology of my thought. So I was, uh, very, very happy to, to take this new journey. Yeah. Yeah. And look at where you are and how that's moved. You said earlier that you joined your current role in January, 2020, which we all look back on as being a moment where we slightly naively thought that 2020 would be very different. And of course, it turned out to be. The first year of Covid, really, it would be great to hear how that was for you both personally and professionally, joining a new company coming in as a senior leader into that organization during this really tumultuous time. Yes. So I calculated, post, coming outta Covid. I'd had 16 days in the office with the team, uh, sorry, 16 days before I came out. We came outta Covid and I started the role in January, 2020. Um, and 50% of the team were new to each other. A hundred percent of the team were new to me. And then we obviously went into lockdown. What was the, uh, I think the tipping point for us as we went through this journey, uh, through our virtual screens was very much, the fact that 48% of our business was in travel. So we are highly indexed into travel and we just go to zero. So not only was I battling, um, a complete dissolution of 50% of our business, but we also had, you know, a brand new team I had to foster around. And, um, I'm the type of leader, you know, that's very immersive. I like to understand the ecology of the team. I like to try and figure out how I can fit into it, and then how we can all change habits for the better use of the company. And, um, it was extremely hard because we weren't sure whether we were going to have jobs at that time. Yeah. And so, you know, building that, that, um, that team bonding. Took time. So I think the first thing I did was I had to come up with some novel ways of keeping the fun in a time where people were having such difficulties, right? With what was happening with their family members, what was going on. You know, most of us in Singapore are not from Singapore. Um, and family members are far away from us. So there was a lot more, uh, team engage. So we would use at least two sessions every week, where we, would have a fun and engaging time. There could be a general knowledge quiz, nothing to do with work, or it could be what would be the 10 things you'd like to do before you know you retire? Or post your retirement. What are the 15 things that you love in music, anything random to keep the team engaged and to get us to build, uh, a relationship beyond just the natural work. So that really helped because people pulled together. We, you know, there was banter, it was virtual banter. our c e o, I must give a full kudos to him. He came and did an entire one and a half hours virtual cocktail, uh, making session. That's our c e o and we're such a small team here in Singapore. We, which represents for a, we're the team Singapore, but we represent all of Asia. Right be flying into these markets. And so we couldn't do that. We couldn't meet our clients either. So I think it was one of the most difficult times in my management career. But oddly enough, one of the most humbling moments I've ever gone through. And if you can, as any leader, and we, most all of us can say this now, we've gone through it. We're just that much more sistant. So I learned a lot about myself, in terms of resilience, but I also learned a lot about how to engage with teams beyond being in the office, which, given the changes that we've seen are some of that, is here to stay. And that's helped me, um, build on that team, mentorship and leadership with each other. And, and when you think about that kind of shift of that style of leadership, it sounds like you were already a leader who. Through people. People was, were part of you that lovely, you know, initial conversation when you were a lawyer of somebody looking at you and saying you're a people person, essentially. But I guess I'm curious about what you see has changed in your leadership as a result of that period. Well, Jean, I honestly, I would say that I look at reverse engineering now. I look at, um, the cohort of individuals coming in, and it was someone at McKinsey who pointed out, this is the first time we've got four cohorts of individuals in any business. Right. You've got, um, millennials, gen X, gen Z, you've got the, some of the baby boomers still around Gen Y. So you've got four to five in some cases across any business. And leadership is a very malleable, um, uh, way to, we should be malleable. We should not be leading in a stoic fashion anymore, like we did in the, you know, in the late seventies and eighties. Um, I I, I came through at a time where whatever your manager said, you just. Hmm. Uh, that is not the case. So what heightened and actually gave me the tools that I need was the a ACC C certification, um, with Balfour Bailey. Part of that was really being able to understand, we never use this term, right? Why we never use that in coaching, but that is usually the first question. That somebody who's a, who's often a millennial origin ex will ask because they have so much more knowledge and are so much more empowered with all that information that they have, that is their right to ask. Can I get a little bit more understanding as to why we are doing this? Mm-hmm. And uh, for me, I found that fascinating. And I needed to be able to understand how to move away from being, uh, a manager into being a coach, as a manager. And that's a huge differentiator for me. Mm-hmm. and, and what is that differentiator? Okay, well, um, I'm gonna call this the GNE movement for me. This is where, one of the deities in Hinduism essentially is it looks like an elephant. And he will have two very large ears and a very small mouth. Not the actual, uh, trunk, but the small mouth. Now what what I mean by that? Listening twice as much as you speak. Every manager, we often think we know everything and we do know a lot. Experience has a lot to say, but I think silence is often golden and we should listen twice as much to understand the context. Context is key. That's wonderful. Yeah, I love that. I'm gonna be using that GNE lint. That's beautiful. No, not why I'm in marketing Exactly. So beautiful. How about when things are tough? What helps you to remain motivated in your role? That's a great question. Um, couple of things. I actually got asked by, a leader I sat on the board with IAB B and I, I got asked by another leader, you know, we're, we're in covid times, how are you keeping yourself sane? Uh, you don't have your family here, et cetera, et cetera. And I would often go into a room, close the curtain. Put on whatever favorite music I have, whether it's two or three tracks, and just, just be mindful. I know it. Mindful means is you, you just completely silence everything out. But I learned that things that evoke happiness in me, which are old music or old songs that I love encourage me to be a lot more happier and to think differently. Because I'm not thinking with anxiety. I'm thinking with some happy moments. Now, I was the first one to admit that I thought mindful with was just, a beautiful word to mean nothing. Right? There's so much bant around it, but. I'm an absolute convert. Mm-hmm. Uh, I am the first one to, to talk about it and to explain that, you know, I never believed on, I never believed this bandwagon, but I'm actually on it now because I saw the value in it. Mm-hmm. So that was for, for me, one of the most, uh, way the most beneficial ways for me to reduce stress and to try to think a little bit outside of the box. So we talked about the challenges and solving for. Mm. That has helped me, um, and helped me to figure out how best to coach our team members. So I think the opportunity for anyone is to step away from a tough situation and take the time, invest that in yourself, even if it's five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes, because you're going to think differently and you're thi you, you're away from the cauldron if you like. Right? The pot's boiling. You're away from that. So you can think differently. How best. change what's in that part, shut it down, et cetera. And I think that's what we need. We often, uh, fail to negotiate the time that we have. And remember. At least a third of our day is spent at work. So we have to think about spending some of that time away in order to be better and more proficient at what we do. Mm-hmm. Oh, wow. I so much in what you're saying about this so this piece about, we have an, an idea, I think that we need to be at our desk,, or in front of the client and at that downtime, that time where we step away from our screens, where we step away from the narrow focus. And whether that's going for a walk or uh, actually sitting and reading something that's stimulating. We, we absolutely need to be doing it. And there's some really interesting research that I read recently that actually said that the nature of looking at screens, narrows our focus. And what you are describing is that we need to step away in order to kind of work out what to do next. Because it's not in the narrow focus, it's in our peripheral vision, it's in our wider view that we can find that. Absolutely. Um, mark Cuban, who's a vc, uh, well known in Silicon Valley, um, he talked about the future of the workforce and, uh, he said, actually, our future is inherently built on. The need for creativity and art. You think about it in the late fifties, um, we had to be our desk to process data, to input data, to sometimes process data. And so we are moving away from that conveyor belt of work style into a, a system where that's automatically done through AI and efficiency. So what we should be spending more of our time on is the creative element. How do we. Even more, um, you know, efficiency. How do we look at things in a different way to give us what we want, which is going to be robust and scalable for whatever business we are looking at. So, I'm, I'm a, I'm a big believer if your, uh, if your work is done for a day, Go and actually do something that can, that can supplement that go for a walk, go and have an extended lunch because you're gonna come back even more enthused rather than, you know, being chained to your desk where you are literally now feeling like I need to clock watch because I am so tired at looking at my screen and it's no good for our eyes even, even as we speak. I mean, you know, Jean, just to give you an example, The many children that I see when we go to dinners or lunches or we, you know, we're walking past a park. How many of those children have, are wearing glasses now? Mm. I wouldn't see that in the uk. I mean, of, of course it's changed the UK too. I wouldn't see that. But more and more children are wearing glasses because we are immersing ourselves into screens and we shouldn't. Yeah. And it's stopping so much. This, there's something that was an article that arrived in my inbox from Mariana Huffington this morning also talking about this idea that, that we need to be. Busy that, that the kind of idea of burnout became a, a badge of honor almost. And that actually it's really time and she's talking about a revolution. It's time for a revolution and how we think about this. And I think these are small ways in which we can individually be part of that revolution by saying, I'm going for lunch on my own because I need some stinking time. Or, you know, finding really small ways, but actually. you know, 50 years ago people did take an hour for lunch. They finished work at five o'clock, those kinds of things. The, the other thing I wanted to pick up, um, from what you're saying is this idea about mindfulness and movement and music and that all coming together to shift your mood and how powerful that is. This idea, first of all, that mindfulness doesn't have to be about sitting quietly somewhere. It's about finding a way to come back into our. In the present moment and that a good dance or a good, anything that can help us connect with ourselves through that can be very powerful. Absolutely I never failed to forget this. Over 90% of our communication is non-verbal. And Jean when, you're looking to be a lawyer and you want to stand up in front of those law courts to convince juries. A lot of that is around how you speak, how, uh, your hands are moving. So you just imagine all of these things that you have to think about as you are a, as you're a leader and how you're trying to go about your day. So you're absolutely right. There's so many different ways that we, um, we need to think about communication in the way that we. React to it and speak to it. Mm-hmm. Yes. And feel it in ourselves. Absolut and our being. Yeah. Yeah. So you've shared a bit of the journey of your career to date. What are you learning about yourself at the moment or what have you learned over the last year? Ah, yes. Um, I've learned a lot. I've learned patience can be reward. In the right context, I've, uh, certainly learned that I must listen much more. I thought I was highly indexed towards listening, and that is not the case. I think we're wired as individuals, uh, to speak more often than not. So I actually reflect more and allow, um, my teams to I in, in fact, I changed my weekly team meeting, so I'm the last person to speak because I've got the context of what is the, what is going on from other people that I can succinctly bring that back. Um, so there's little things like. Jean have really helped me. But, the thing that I've learned the most over time, is that I know what I'm doing. I am confident in who I am and how to lead. And I probably that index grew because of what happened at Covid. Wow. Uh, with a new team., and that, uh, indecision is no decision. Because Covid, and now we're going through, I talked about the interesting moment at what work is like. indecision is not a good response to a fluid market., we have to figure out whether we are going to move A or B in order to then double down and, um, deepen how we're going to work if we are waiting for headwinds and, and different whirlwinds coming through. Um, there's a lot of gray and people don't like to work within a gray, uh, mindset. So for me, I think indecision is. Is not a decision is probably the most important things I learned during Covid, um, and about myself. Just do not take too long in making a decision because it is going to cause much more stress throughout your team and through other teams than, uh, it would if you make a decision and then double down on what you're going to do. Hmm. That's really interesting because that's also suggesting that. Well, first of all, that no decision is perfect. I think we spend a lot of time with trying to work out what's the best decision, what's the right decision. We use those, that language. But as you've said, so much of what we're dealing with at the moment is great because we can't see three months or six months out, and so we can only make a decision that's good for now. But there's a really interesting connection between your own confidence and therefore your ability to say, okay, I'm gonna make this decision, then we're gonna follow. And if it's wrong, I. That also will have to be okay. I guess so. I mean, I think the other thing that I've learned just from reading all these different books and podcasts is we overcomplicate because our mindset has been built to think about many different, um, scenarios or impacts or changes. I want to think more like a. What do I need to do? And then I'll deal with the barriers that come with it. So my mantra, actually the start of January, 2022. One thing I always do is I start, I write, uh, it seems nautical, but it works for me. I write, the five things I'm going to try and achieve in a year. I put them away in an envelope. Um, and then I wait to see, okay, what was one of the, the five things did I achieve it? So every quarter I will go back and look at it and see did I achieve any one of those five things and what am I going to do to achieve it so that, again, that reverse hacking comes back, that reverse engineering comes back. And it seems an odd thing to do because I, I work in digital. You'd think I'd put it into, uh, into one of my emails. Um, but it works for me cuz there's a symbolism. And you know, the art of going back and finding the envelope and then saying, did I do this? It almost forces me to make sure that every end of the quarter I go and look to see, did I do any of these five things? Five is a, is a random number, but I figured that if I do anything more than five, I probably am going to not achieve it. Three probably is the best I should go for. Yeah, I love that there's something very embodied, again, actually about writing it down and putting it in an envelope and then it becomes very physical and, and tactile. I'm gonna do that in January. I really like that idea. Um, you just mentioned actually that you've been doing some reading. I'm curious about whether there's any particular books or podcasts that you would recommend. People, certainly Jean. Well, there's one book I'm a huge Sopranos fan. Okay. And there was a, how to lead management, how to be, how to lead as a manager as Tony Soprano. This book came out years ago. It's pretty good. 15 years old. Um, but from time to time I actually read it because anybody who's a fan. Will certainly understand, um, the, the kind of symbolism that he has being, you know, this head of a mafia organization. But he will still have to go through coaching sessions, uh, and go to see a psychologist to understand, uh, is he doing it? Cause he has a turmoil around some of the decisions he makes. And I think that was a really good way for me, 15 to, I think it's about a 17 year old book to understand. You can be at the top of your game, but we are still gonna have levels of anxiety in some of the decisions that we make. But one of the, one of the more recent books is a book by Ken Allen, um, and he calls it, I think the book is termed Radical Simplicity, it is so meaningful in the way that we are today. He's the c e O of Dell and he talks about how to radically simplify his business. Now, if you think about Dell and your child, literally you're trying to take one product from a, to. But there was a lot of over complication as you are in an organization. So he almost went back to basics of thinking like a child and starting to radically simplify what are we good at and what are we going to go deep in and how are we going to do that to embody that message to our customers? And it's one of the best books I read, and I think it's a book that every single leader. Specifically in, in technology should actually read because we over-complicate, we've got all this technical prowess and we are over-utilizing it and it's also causing harm. Right? Energy efficiency is a problem right in any industry with technology. Cause it is, this is where we need to get better from an e s G point of view. And then the last one, the podcast, it's called the Diary of a C E O by Steven, but. I know it was, yeah, it was recommended by somebody in my team who doesn't, who has resistance to books, but love the podcast and it's such a real world, uh, way of talking about things that are happening right now. So you've got kind of the ec ecological viewpoint of how to radically simplify. And then you've got someone who's talking about real world problems right now. Um, and I think when I put the two together, it gives me such a good litmus of what I need to think about to bridge. How we, you know, how any of us in the business try to make sure we work with our team, our counterparts, and our different countries? And I haven't talked to you about the complexity about working for a US company, but being based in Asia. So it allows me to be able to then nurture some of this and, and talk about it in the right way. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. So I will put links to all of those in the show notes. I'm also going to go back and get both of them, uh, the books. I've, I already listened to that podcast. I, I'm curious about this idea of simplicity actually, because, One of the themes that's coming up a lot, I think in conversations I have with clients myself is there's a level of exhaustion in the system, and one of the questions that I've really begun to ask recently is, is what are we doing that we could stop doing? That we could simplify, that we could streamline. Um, because so often I think in business we say we need to do that and that, and that. We don't go back and say, what do we need to share? What do we take out? What don't we need to be doing? How can we simplify, automate, all of those things? So I think that's a great moment actually to think about that idea. Yes, Jean? Um, I honestly think the, the biggest crime. We commit as businesses, including myself, but I'm much better at it now, is not communicating enough. I think that's what we've got to do. I, I think we don't communicate enough. We may communicate by email. We may forward something on Slack, or we may send something on a call, but we don't actually physically communicate properly and, and we, how many people, actually, I hardly get phone calls anymore, and the phone was a device for, for us to call each other and speak to each other, get the intonation right. Understand whether someone's having a bad day. None of this we do often enough, and in fact, my team knows we've got, you know, we've got delays because of the US and whatever time zone call, if you can do it, call the person up because they'll get context clarity. You'll build a rapport and it will reward you in time. Memorium, because you've built that relationship, you can't build that. Um, I, I've tried. I cannot get anywhere better than actually physically meeting a person or calling a person in building a relationship. I've tried it. I don't think you get the same level of communication, uh, unless you're there in person with someone, especially when you need their help or understanding. Mm. A hundred percent agree. That feeling we get when we are together, which helps us create so, Yeah. So this has been a wonderful conversation. I'm, I'm gonna ask you this question to finish off today, and that's partly because you've talked about music, but if you had to choose a song about yourself, what would it be? Ah, there's so many, but the one I really love is an all classic. I, I'm sure you, you probably guess it from the conversation that we've had today, but it, it was, it's Gloria Gain as I will Survive. Sometimes I think that really sums up we can do anything because we will survive. Mm-hmm. Wow. Thank you. I'll play that today. It's, it's been such a delight having this conversation. I feel that we could have. Had several conversations because there's so many strands and themes and the one that you've just mentioned about, you know, working for an American company based in Asia is a whole mother conversation I suspect. But thank you for sharing your energy and your relational approach to leadership, which is very inspiring. And, uh, it'll be intriguing to see where we all go over the next three to six months. But I'm confident that for you, in the way you. Your, you and your team are in safe hands, so thank you so much for sharing your insights today. Thank you very much, Jean. It's been a real pleasure to to talk to you and thanks for giving some time.