Ep. #46 Adopting a Career Reinvent Mindset with Adeline Tiah

Jean: 0:07

Hi everyone and welcome to Making Sense of Work. Today I'm joined by Aline Tier, who is, seasoned executive and marketeer, and is going to talk to us today about her book Reinvent. Welcome to the podcast a.

Adeline: 0:24

Thank you Jean. Thanks for having me on your podcast.

Jean: 0:26

It's my pleasure. Let me tell you a bit about Alyn. She is an accomplished corporate leader with more than 20 years experience across top banks. Telco and startups. She's passionate about building brands and high performance teams, and she brings a breadth of experience because she's worked for both corporates, large organizations as well as small startups, which she helped to grow from north to one and to scale from 10 to a hundred. Her career journey and her experience from coaching. Over 250 clients have provided insights on why we need to embrace a permanent reinvention mindset to thrive in this uncertain world that we live in. And her book Reinvent 4.0, provides keys to unlocking success and thriving in this uncertainty. And we are going to talk a lot. Today there's a key takeaway from her book, which is to invest in your next trajectory while you are still growing, keep our careers moving. in her spare time. She's an adjunct lecturer at the school of business at Singapore University. She also partners with high growth startups to help them develop their brand and go to market strategies. And she's also an ICF certified coach and reinvent coach, helping individuals and teams develop a winning mindset to take on the future of work. So welcome Adeela, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation about how do we adapt to the future of work, which is a really tough gig.

Adeline: 2:04

Thanks, Jean. I always love such great conversations.

Jean: 2:07

Yeah. Good. How's work at the moment?

Adeline: 2:11

Well, I'm now splitting my time between speaking engagements. you know, just because of the launch of my book, my coaching and business consulting work, and spending time, doing community service as well, and of course taking time to connect with people, by yourself and also by many friends whom I didn't have the time to when I was in the corporate, arena. In fact, this is the best season of my life, at this point, to be able to take a step back and to appreciate the final things in life and not just busy focusing on task and meeting targets. So this is a fantastic time of my season.

Jean: 2:43

How wonderful. And I imagine that you've really created this very intentionally this season, this stage of your life, and, it sounds like it's working well for you.

Adeline: 2:55

Yes, I mean, I think we really need to be very intentional. you know, when I took a, decided to take a break just last year in March when I had a conversation with a coach who asked me this question, what would an 80 year old lin thank me for what I do today? You have always heard about people, asking what would you tell a younger self? But this is a very different question because I have not lived up to 80 years. but it got me thinking, right? for the last four years, you know, COVID 19 has kind of gotten me to do a lot of reflection and I've spent the last 20 years of my life helping businesses grow, focusing on building their brands. And I forgot about my own dreams. I've always wanted to be, an author. So I thought, okay, why not just take time off, write a book, something that I passionately believe in and see whether it takes. So that was the genesis of this whole new journey that I am embarking on now.

Jean: 3:52

Great. I mean, that's a great, good news story in a way of us taking, of you taking the courage to step out of your comfort zone and say, okay, I'm gonna do this thing that I've always dreamt about doing. Yeah.

Adeline: 4:05

you know, actually one, when I, during Covid, here at the lockdown, I read a lot of books. One of the book that really inspired, you know Me was the hundred Year Life. The two authors talk about how, people are now living longer. The average life expectancy could be up to a hundred years, you know, in the years to come. So with a longer lifespan and people are now also going through a lot of disruptions, yous in the last couple of months, right? Many people are laying, being laid off. Companies are, you know, going through business transformation. What this means. An individual will have many inflection points in their lifetime, right? So it is important that we stay agile. We intentionally, I mean, if you want to work for longer period of time, we want to be able to pace ourself and take intentional breaks to recharge and refresh.

Jean: 4:55

Think that's really true. I mean, this idea that we had, certainly probably my generation actually, that people would work to 55 maybe and then retire. That's a story long gone. And we do have to reinvent, as you say and think about, so how do we have meaningful working lives for longer, that are not draining and that we're finding fulfilling and enjoy.

Adeline: 5:21

In fact, when I. Reinvent, reinvent 4.0. Stands for industrial 4.0 because we are at the cups of, you know, moving from a three to a four. Right? We have web three, we have a blockchain coming out. This is all, this is instructing a lot of jobs on there And when I look at, reinvent, I'm not looking at it as a destination. Very often people hear of reinventing from being maybe, a data scientist to some, something else, right? Another role. But to me, reinvent is actually a journey of versions, upgrades. if you look at our, you know, what we deal with every day in our life, right? We have mobile app, and yes, we are so familiar with app, being upgraded, right? Version 2.1, 2.3. there always bug to be fixed. So if you view our career or even our life as like, always be in permanent data, there's always bugs to fix. There's always, things that, areas for improvement and having that beginner's mindset. actually, it's very important because it just keeps me curious, hungry to learn more things, and each time when I take a step back, I actually benefited from it. the intention break actually helped me, intentionally going out there to build new network, connecting with people, learn new skills and each, so-called version upgrades actually give me a boost to move onto something, actually bigger and, and more enrich.

Jean: 6:45

I can feel your energy actually. I can feel that sense of energy and fulfillment that you've got from those different upgrades,

Adeline: 6:53

Yeah. We, met, over coffee, last year, just before I was, about to embark on this journey. I'm sure you noticed that the energy level is very different.

Jean: 7:02

Yes, I can see that. So this is an inspiring story for all of us to follow our dreams in a realistic way, and I'm sure you were realistic about it, but to really keep thinking about how can I keep my dreams alive and reinvent myself and keep moving that I love this idea of upgrading, keeping, upgrading ourselves. It would be great if you could just share a little bit about how you came to this point. What was your career journey to get to where you are.

Adeline: 7:31

but unlike many others, I must say that I have taken a non-linear approach in navigating my career. I've built my experience across different industries. spending the first seven, nine years of my career in, in the Telco brand, building the depth and breadth of my marketing experience before I moved on to the banking industry. where I, in just moving out to, a very comfortable space to a new industry was, it took me a lot of courage and, you know, adapting to it and learning new. Right. And that kind of widened my breath along the way. I actually decided, okay, let's along the way pick up new skills. So I got myself certified as a human-centered design practitioner. I got myself certified as a coach. I took career break to actually. practice coaching because I wanted to build that aspect of me because coaching is, important leadership skills. And when I eventually get back to work as to do what I love to do in marketing, I actually realized as a, leader. Coaching has changed the way I lead as well, and the kind of conversations I have with my team. So that's what I meant by versions, upgrades, right? we need to constantly, upgrade ourselves. but when you want to do something different. find where your leverage is and build from that, lever, rather than starting reading things from.

Jean: 8:51

I really agree with that. I really often, when I'm working with clients about their career, invite them to look back and say, of all of the things that you've got, how can you take those forward? Doesn't have to be in the same career, but how do you build on that experience? How do you use those leaders, as you say, to

Adeline: 9:09

Yes. absolutely.

Jean: 9:11

And. Then you took this time off to write this book, which is called Reinvent. And we are going to do a bit of a deep dive shortly into what the reinvent stands for. But one of the things when I was reading it, I was curious about is write the beginning of the book, you talk about, uh, coaching a lot of people, over 250 people who have been displaced from work. And I became really curious. What you saw, what did that tell you about work? What did you learn about work and how this displacement affects us? And perhaps also how can we take displacement as a positive experience rather than, it's always a difficult experience, but how can we help it to be a growth point?

Adeline: 9:59

Yeah. I mean that was really very pivotal, journey for me when I took time off the coach. Right. And it was. Site too as well. I never know that. you know, there are different groups of people, right? People who are very self-entitled. they believe that the government, who them are living, therefore they refuse to change. they are people who are always too positive. I want to take charge. I want to reskill, I want to, I'll do whatever it takes, you know, to get back, to do what I enjoy doing. But one of the challenge I see when I coach these clients is aj, them is, is real, right? We talk about this is the elephant in the room, both the employees and employees as well. And employees can change their mindset, right? if, you know, if they think that, regardless of. I can just focus on what value I can bring to the business and change that perception by business so that people see the value you bring to the business rather than your age. I mean, just look at Michelle. Yo, she is 60 and she's just got an Oscar and she told, the whole world that don't let others, tell you that you are, you know, beyond the prime. Right? Yeah. And on the employer side, employers are guilty, right? Because they talk about runway. Because if you are in your forties or fifties, you have shorter runway. But that is again, a flaw, argument because these days with disruption, people are not necessarily wanting to stay on the job for more than three years. And they themselves sometimes are guilty because they know that when they're, in their fifties, they probably want. Time off and be laid back. But the reality is that in today's world, there are many people, in fact, many of my friends I know who are in the forties and fifties asked you, very highly driven. They might have stepped up on the corporate ladder to take a career break, but they are just recalibrating building new networks. Just let myself and looking at, how can they harness the wisdom they have accumulated over the years and bring value to the organization in a different perspective, right? So I think that is what I saw. And of course, it still goes down to mindset. I mean, I have enough data points to show that regardless of whether you graduate from a Polytechnic or from Cambridge University, you know, the mindset is the key to, success and moving you forward to fulfilling life in.

Jean: 12:23

Oh, I so agree with that. I really hold that, this idea that we. In fact, the research shows that the idea that we stop learning, when we can't learn as much as we get older, is actually not true. In fact, it's we will live longer if we keep learning. Basically, that learning is so fundamental to our wellbeing and it is about mindset. It's about that story that we're telling ourselves about age. And then I do think I agree with you that from. An individual perspective, I'm gonna tell that story to an employer. So if I'm looking for a job and I'm older, I'll go in and say, and it's not even about saying I'll, project age is not a question here. This is about my energy, my willingness to learn, my curiosity, all of which doesn't leave us unless we let it go.

Adeline: 13:15

Absolutely.

Jean: 13:18

You built your book around this idea of reinvent. We've talked a bit about it. perhaps could you just start by telling us what reinvent means to you, and perhaps a little bit about the acronym.

Adeline: 13:31

Right. Well, when I, crafted reinvent, I was very intentional. I say, okay, each letter actually reinvent is an acronym. So each letter stands for something, right? So I'm just gonna share very briefly about it. R stands for risk taking mindset. you do not need to take, you know, not taking a risk is a risk itself. So you need to be able to understand what is the strategic trade off, what kind of risk you're willing to take, and e stands for entrepreneurial think. you don't need to be an entrepreneur to think like one, because we need to always put in a business owner mindset or how can I solve the problems? How can I bring value to the organization versus being, having an employee mindset where I just do the job. That is important. Right? Inclusiveness. this is about, you know in, as people live longer, we are, facing, seeing a multi-generational workforce under the same roof. Being able to embrace inclusivity. the d E I agenda is important, you know, for an individual to be ready for the future of work. And that n stands for noticeable. that's personal branding. that's important, right, indeed, to position yourself to what, do you stand for? And these stands for vulnerability. Vulnerability means being true to yourself. embrace humility and servant leader. right. And E stands for empathy and N stands for networking. the power of network shows up, very unexpectedly, right? And always, at least for me, and t stands for transdisciplinary skills. I talk about, constantly learning, building new skills, especially building skills as outside of your main. and when we talk about learning new skills, we have to be very strategic about learning new skills, right? Like, for example, I could be learning coding just out of interest, but I know that I am not gonna switch from being a marketer to being a coder, but maybe understanding coding helps me Have better conversations with the engineering team if I were to lead a larger, you know, organization in a bigger context. So it's always about knowing what is your long-term strategy, thinking long-term, and then you navigate your learning journey according to it. So that sums up the, what each of the letter stands for and reinvent four by.

Jean: 15:41

it's really helpful. It's really helpful framing, I think, for people to think about, how do I do this? It's really well put together. Line. I'm curious about a few of them, so if it's okay, I want to ask a few questions. I actually was gonna start with the last one. you are describing. That actually reminded me something that I've completely forgotten that when I was in my mid twenties, I did go and do a computer programming. This is a long time ago. Computers were very basic then, and I only did a six week, two evenings a week course. So it wasn't very long. But the learning I took from that means that even now when I'm doing something, In some of our systems on our coach training programs, we use something called Learn Worlds. I understand a little bit about the zero one stuff that's going on behind the scene, and I don't understand it at all, of course, but I kind of know the mindset and it was, a tiny bit of learning that has stood the test of time for me over the years. So I think in that transdisciplinary learning, we don't need to learn a whole thing, we just need a little insight into it. We need some window so that we can understand that language. I'm learning a lot about marketing your field at the moment. That's been really new for me. And again, the same, you know, I don't need to be a marketing expert, but just knowing more about. Helps me feel like I do my job better and helps me understand other people better.

Adeline: 17:06

I think the key thing here is having a genius skill that you are known for and then you build, skills around it to be better at what you are doing. that's what I meant by. Transdiscipline me, but not, or spreading yourself too deep and end up being jack of all, three. Right?

Jean: 17:24

Great. Yeah. What's your genius skill?

Adeline: 17:27

Well, my genius skills would be, I would call it solving, helping people to solve problems, organization solve problems. And I do my Clifton strength and one two of my top, five Clifton strengths are arranger. and restorative. So I like to solve problems. I like to break down, tear down things and rebuild them, right? Because I will force a square into a round pack. so I will try to break things down and try to look at the key, what are the different ways I will think set with the box. So I would say these are my junior.

Jean: 18:00

I was just thinking actually your book represents that, that you took apart where the future of work is and then brought it back together in helping people think about that in a very practical way. So I can see your genius skill at work and your

Adeline: 18:12

that comes naturally. I didn't think about that when I wrote a book.

Jean: 18:15

Yeah, you've done a good job of

Adeline: 18:16

Thank you.

Jean: 18:17

let me just go into a couple of others. So, you talked right at the beginning of your model. It starts with R, which is about risk taking. I think this is a really interesting one for people because I, first of all, some of us are more prone and more open, I suppose, to taking risks than others. And, and yet, it's good, I think I'm with you, that for all of us, we are going to have to take some risks at some point in our career. If we are not naturally a risk taker, what can we do to kind of embrace risk taking?

Adeline: 18:49

you're talking to the right person. Because I'm not a risk taker So for me to take, a risk like this to just creep without a job and just write a book, takes courage. Right. But I do have, I always ask my question, right? Always think long term. what's the trade off? for example, when I took risk, I realized I take calculated risk throughout my career. just giving an example, more than 20 years ago when I, was first retrenched, I was, you know, I had, when one door closed, two doors open, I was, suddenly presented this two opportunities, a global bank, which is Citibank, and yet we launched telco. Which doesn't even have a brand. And anybody would say, l you know, just go for the Citibank because it looks good on your cv. It will, gives you lots of opportunities to go regional. But at that time, I told myself banking could wait. and how else would you get an opportunity to be in a company to put in disrupt the whole? I took a risk. I gave up a glamorous job, higher pay. I decided to join a telco startup, and I was richly, rewarded because I stayed there for nine years. And during that time, the company grow exponentially. I had many opportunities to launch manifest in the industry. I also had two opportunity to win marketing awards, which actually gave me, got me invited to speak at, regional. And that gave me a lot of confidence, and as well as build depth in my marketing knowledge. And that was when I actually, built my foundation of, marketing. And guess what, eventually I still went up, joined the banking industry, and even then, that was a risk, right? Because I was in the telco doing well, not nine years. I say, why would I want to switch? I'm just happy here. My recruiter at that time told me, if you don't move now, you'll fixed asset. She did a very good job in selling me the role. I decided to just take the risk. I moved to the banking industry and the first six months was not, small sailing for me, because it's a very different culture. people there are a bit more clique-ish, you know? it's more bureau. It took me six months. I told myself I took a risk and I'm gonna stick with it no matter what happens. And before I knew it, I was in the banking industry for 15 years. So by taking risk, right? I, over time I learn to be more agile. And this risk, I tell myself, what's the trade off? I always ask what's strategic trade off? what's the worst that could happen, right? If I take this. So that always, helped me, guide me in taking the risk.

Jean: 21:19

I think that's a really great question that takes us out of that, conservative mindset in there. But I'm hearing you talk a lot about courage as well, that you really lent into your own personal courage and that helped you to do that. Mm-hmm.,yeah. The other piece that you've talked a bit about being noticeable and the idea of networking and both of these areas around the having a brand and getting out there and networking. I completely agree. we have to do this. It's a core part of our business. But again, for some people this literally makes them squirm in their chairs. They're like, no, don't make me do that. Please don't make me do that. so how can we help people who. Perhaps naturally reticent to kind of feel that need to build a network or to have this kind of idea of a personal brand. How can we help them bridge that feeling of not wanting to do it, that it feels out of their personal character?

Adeline: 22:15

I would, advise, take small steps. don't give yourself a big hairy goal that would scare you off. It's not about the goals, right? It's about the process. as you read, James Clear Road about atomic habits, right? Always take small steps. So for example, I am actually an I. So placing myself out there, personal branding, it takes a lot of effort. I started small by just sharing it. And where I'm coming from is I do not focus on, it's not about myself, although it's personal branding. I focus on what value, what kind of content could I create for my audience? And reframing that, does help because it takes attention away from me, which I wasn't comfortable with. And the same for networking as. I don't go to a networking event and start, talking to people. Naturally, it just sets up the energy in me. So what I do is I would be very intentional, I would say, okay, does networking, I'll do some background, researcher, the people is attending, and I would maybe identify two or three people I could approach and two or three questions. And once I'm done, I'm happy, right? I achieve my goal and refuse a sense of satisfaction. And over time, when I do this repeatedly, small steps, it strengthens my muscle, my networking muscles. And I am a bit natural in doing it now. And people think that you are an introvert.

Jean: 23:37

Yeah, so I, I love that it's that small steps and then now, It comes across to me that it feels very natural to you, but you've built that, that wasn't natural to start with. So you've developed it and grown it and kind of deepened it over time. it's interesting, the whole idea of personal brand. What does it mean to you when you talk about a personal brand and being noticeable?

Adeline: 23:59

I think it's more important to be very clear about your why, why you do what you do, what you stand for, because that will actually determine, how you bring yourself. Right., what kind of messaging, I'm just putting on my marketing head again, right? What's your brand strategy, what you stand for, and then based on that, how are you gonna position yourself vis-a-vis maybe who else, who is your target audience, right? And, from there, looking at where do you want to place yourself? For example, you know, being featured in a Harvard Business Review, gives you the credibility, but what do you need to do to reach there? For example, I think being always starting from, who do you want? Who are you, what do you stand for, why you do what you do, and who's your target audience that you are trying to. And from there, start building then your whole brand strategy, your content, your own brand personality. be authentic when you do your personal branding

Jean: 25:04

And that can happen for people, both people who want to be in the Harvard Business Review and people who want to get the next promotion. It's the same strategy, isn't it? It's exactly the same

Adeline: 25:14

a a absolutely.

Jean: 25:16

It's about that, you know, who am I? How do I want to be seen? Who's my target audience? How do I influence them?

Adeline: 25:22

Think it's important, and I wrote this in my book as well, it's important to be consistent, and you walk the talk, whatever you say, you need to be able to show up in the same way.

Jean: 25:32

Yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. The last piece I'd like to pull out from the reinvent actually is to do with inclusiveness. So there was one part that you talked about in the inclusiveness piece, which was about ambiguity, and I was really happy to see something about ambiguity because it comes up for me sometimes with coaching clients who are saying, I kind of want things to be clear and I'm stuck in ambiguity and there's a lot of gray, you know, I can't see what's happening and I wondered for you how you see ambiguity. You obviously see that it's important for us to have some comfort with it. And, are there any tricks that you have maybe not, that we can learn to be more comfortable with ambiguity?

Adeline: 26:16

I guess from my personal experience, especially in the fuka world, right? things move so fast, you know, this des distractions that's happening. How do you deal with ambiguity? So, in the work context, right, it's very important that, ask questions. and that's what coaching has taught me as well. The power asking the right questions, right? So when I'm placed in a situation of ambiguity, I would maybe talk to people, ask questions, clarify. And then try to, and that's not enough, right? like when I joined the startup, right? Startup moves very fast and there was ambiguity. the product that was supposed to be launched, was not ready as shared with me when I went for the interview. So what I did was I would go back to my c e o and ask him, what is your priority at point in time? what are you looking? What do investors look for when, you know, when they want to see this product succeed? So then I draw out the answers, but it doesn't end there because I need to come back with solutions, right? With these problems. With these priorities. What are the actions I could take? And I presented three options of actions. And then once again, you know, I get clarity or looking with these two actions. What is your priority? What do you want me to focus on for? And being able to ask questions. being able to come up with options, and reinforce and, further get clarification does help to anchor ourself, in the midst of ambiguity.

Jean: 27:47

If there's something also in what you just said and that was, what are your priorities right now? I think one of the lessons of living with ambiguity is that might not be the priorities tomorrow, and that can be very frustrating. And because we are living in this fast paced VUCA world, yeah. The priorities are there. So there's also something about us learning to go with our three solutions the following day, and to breathe calmly through the CEO saying, well, actually our priorities have changed and we're going over Today.

Adeline: 28:20

I think it's a balance of going with the flow at the same time, anchoring yourself on your North Star. on it could be a North star, right? Which is long term, or it could be something that is more immediate, your priority.

Jean: 28:34

Yeah. No, that's brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. I think that's really helpful for us, if we're struggling with that ambiguity, which is everywhere at the moment.

Adeline: 28:42

I actually learned this along the way. And, that's the power of when, when I take risk, I place myself out there, doing something different. And I actually learned from it. you know, I. Learn from this experiences. I need my mistake along the way, I get better that, there's no such thing as failures, right? Only learnings.

Jean: 29:04

so important.

Adeline: 29:05

that goes back to what I said earlier, that we should always view our career our life. As always be in permanent beta, there's always bug to fix and always have the speak mindset.

Jean: 29:16

Yeah. And when we do that, we keep learning for our entire lifetimes. Yeah. As we move towards the end of our conversation, I've got a couple of questions that I often ask people on the podcast and the first is you've talked a lot about different times in your career, but I wonder if there was one particular critical career moment that you could share and share what you've learned a bit from it.

Adeline: 29:44

I think the critical well taking risk, joining new industry. Has always been my critical points because I never know whether I would succeed. like for example, uprooting myself from my friendship, my equity that I've built over the years in the telco industry and moving to the banking industry. Was scary taking risk, right? That there was a pivotal point, but I realized that I could tap on my telco network, the experiences because, I used to have a lot of media connections, PR network, and I, use it for my next role, right? And when I moved, from banking and to a career break, I realized that as a coach, I was able to use my marketing. because I actually help my clients as a coach to not just reframe the mindset, but I use my marketing experience to, help them reposition themselves for new roles. When I went back to work as in a FinTech. Again, I was in a space whereby I was able to coach and do high performance team and as a marketer as well. So this keeps repeating myself, right? So I always tell myself there's new iterations of myself.

Jean: 30:55

Yeah. Nice. And then, Any critical career moment always becomes a learning point then

Adeline: 31:00

yes.

Jean: 31:01

about that falling into failure, learning, keeping going, and moving forward.

Adeline: 31:06

Yes. And also, the critical points always happen when I get uncomfortable and over time I've learned to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Jean: 31:16

Yes, because as we hear, there's no growth in the comfort zone. No, just, a little bit. You come across as someone who holds a lot of confidence and you've been very courageous, but I'm kind of curious about whether imposter syndrome has features and if it does show up, how do you it?

Adeline: 31:40

Oh, yes. it comes on very often. I think most recently, in writing my. After a few chapters, I would ask who would actually read my book, and I don't think I've considered different perspectives and always finding thought, right? Revisiting. So eventually when I launched my book, I was actually more relieved and excited. It was only a few months later when I saw my book at a bookshelf that I finally felt, okay, I'm so proud of myself. And along the way, actually, I've got friends coming back to me, texting me and saying, you know, you really good, good insights, I really could resonate, with your story. And they were taking notes. And I had one client who actually brought a hundred copies of my books to give to their staff

Jean: 32:23

wow.

Adeline: 32:24

of their International Women's Day. And I've, I'm still getting book folders because people were read. It felt that they could, the team could benefit. Um, so they're, they're by my books and I say, wow, you know, yes, imposter syndrome does help, but, does happen. But, I always turn to my faith as well, my Christian. So I, I always tell myself I can do all things to Jesus who strengthens me. And secondly, I have support for my family and friends. And of course I have a coach to talk.

Jean: 32:55

Great. Yeah. We all need our coaches Okay. Final question from me. We are doing a lot of support for you and and your book, and I really congratulate you on it. Is there any other book that you would also recommend people to read that you found personally helpful or a podcast or a tech talk or something?

Adeline: 33:17

I like the book, atomic Habit. by James Clear. It was so good that I decided to buy a copy of it, and I have like, posted pets on it because it really provides very, actionable tips. Like, what do you need to do? It's not about setting the goal, right, The process and the cadence that's important for you to achieve the goal. I

Jean: 33:36

Yes.

Adeline: 33:37

really helpful.

Jean: 33:38

I'm with you actually. And I've listened to him talk on a number of podcasts, James Clear. And every time I hear him talk, I take something new away. In fact, my own writing habit has shifted thanks to something that he said, which was about, it's often environment that stops us delivering our habits. So I created a new writing environment and set some little rituals up, and that helped. So it's a great book., I completely agree. He did a good job. Oh, Alan, well thank you so much for this time. I really want to encourage everyone to read your book. It's a good book. Well done. You know, I mean, it's really hard, I dunno how to say this, but it's really hard to write a really good book and you achieve that. And I know it's got full of practical, helpful. Advice for people trying to reinvent themselves, trying to work out how they survive in this very fast moving and challenging work world. And yeah. Thank you for writing it.

Adeline: 34:37

Thank, you, Jean. Thanks for having me on this podcast.

Jean: 34:40

My pleasure.