Jean: 0:07

Hi everyone, and welcome to Making Sense of Work. I'm really thrilled today to be joined by Nick Johnson. Welcome Nick to the podcast.

Nick: 0:18

Thank you so much, Jean. It's great to be here today.

Jean: 0:21

Good. I'm really, really looking forward to our conversation. Let me tell you a bit about Nick. Nick is dedicated to raising awareness and eliminating the stigma around the phenomena of executive loneliness. He has identified that feelings of isolation and depression, personal struggles that he himself has had to grapple with and conquer are much more widespread than we think. Modern work cultures, as we know, encourage executives to project success and achievement when in fact, thousands, I would suggest hundreds of thousands are actually suffering in silence and denial. And Nick has written a book based on his story with, really practical examples of how to deal with this in his first book called Executive Loneliness. He is also the co-founder and managing director of one of a Asia's premier networking organization's, executives, global Network, E G N in Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia. E GN is a caring pair group network providing hundreds of executives and business owners a safe haven to share their challenges. Receive network. And learn from each other. And in fact, that's how you and I met Nick through e g m. Nick is enthusiastic about supporting his local community. He's a volunteer and fundraiser for the Samaritans of Singapore, a suicide hotline here in Singapore. He also does frequent community service for a support group for problem drinkers now in recovery himself. In his third year, he's also an international coaching federation coach who loves to work with executives to help them with their career and lifestyle choices. So thanks again, Nick, for joining me today on the podcast.

Nick: 2:15

Thank you Jean and thank you for that introduction. And indeed we met in 2017 and if I remember right, and it's been great to follow your coaching journey and so on, and we're coming closer to each other all the time. So thank you also for having raising this important conversation today about removing the stigma when it comes to discussing these topics.

Jean: 2:34

Oh no. I'm really, really happy for us to be talking about this topic today. It's so important. So how's work at the moment?

Nick: 2:44

Well, work is fascinating, Jean. so the pandemic obviously stole a few things for us. While EG n has been running smoothly in Singapore, for a couple of years, we had plans to expand between Indonesia and Malaysia. And of course that was not very easy with the pandemic. So it's only a year ago now. We opened the doors there, so it's expansion time, it's full of energy. Seeing that also in Indonesia and Malaysia, people love to join, these confidential discussions in the peer groups, so that's fascinating. So work is indeed very good.

Jean: 3:14

Good. And when you have a good day at work, Nick, what does that look like for you?

Nick: 3:22

When I have a good day at work, it means that I did not only work, it means that I didn't just wake up and get straight on the laptop. It means that I managed to get some downtime, some time for myself or with others, doing some physical exercise with getting out in the nature. And that is what I'm trying to start every day with not looking at the phone. Going out for a swim, which I did this morning in the ocean, or go for a walk around or perhaps a bike ride, and then the day will be just perfect. And I should say also, Jean, I typically also throw in some work as a volunteer or recovery even in the morning or in the afternoon or in the evening as well.

Jean: 4:00

Okay. So there's so much there about you looking after yourself that creates that, conditions for a good day, and we guess we're gonna talk about that a lot today. I've shared a little bit about who you are and where you come from, but it would be great if you could tell us a little bit about your journey, your career journey, or your personal journey to this point.

Nick: 4:20

Right. So I was born in Sweden, university, educated in Australia, and then I realized that the Australia was quite far from Europe. So I thought, well, I should maybe go halfway. And I looked at the map and that was Asia. So I moved to Thailand, Bangkok, first, and then after that I now worked in Southeast Asia and lived in. not only Thailand, but also Indonesia, Vietnam, and also, Singapore. And the last five years, and now actually I'm partly based also in Thailand again, so it's quite, my home, I will say Southeast Asia. For the last 20 years I have had a corporate career where I worked my way up for many account executive up to. General manager, managing director, general director, both for international, bigger firms, but also for smaller firms, which I helped expand to Asia. a couple of years ago I left my corporate life and moved on to EG n where we indeed do corporate, or entrepreneur groups for the executives and owners where they discuss the work related challenges. So that's what I'm working with these days.

Jean: 5:18

Yeah. That's fantastic. And you really are a global citizen in many ways because you've lived in so many places and worked in so many places. Yeah. So the topic that we are gonna do a deep dive in today is this topic of executive loneliness. And you are doing a lot of meaningful work around both raising awareness and helping people think about it. I wonder if we could just start by you saying a little bit about what do you understand by, what you mean by executive loneliness and what the impact of it is.

Nick: 5:52

Right, and I think if I'm looking back, Jean, during my corporate career, I didn't realize that this was abnormal. I thought this was how you should feel. You know, leaving the office in the evening. Feeling stressed, tense, and looking for a relief. And many times perhaps that I went to the gym or went for a run to release that. But other times, maybe I went to the bar for a drink and it seemed like when I came to the bar, Others were there as well. It seemed like that's the normal way you, you go and have a bit of a good time after work and then you come back the next day and you grind it out. Um, so I just grinded on and, and pushed on in my corporate career, but it was only later on when I was looking back at this and when I came into the peer groups. Then at Dgn, when I heard hundreds of other. Talking about the same kind of feelings of loneliness. And that's when I, you know, said to myself, well, we have to change this. We have to just completely break the stigma first around discussing this, and that is what I'm now on a mission to do.

Jean: 6:51

Mm. And you had your own journey with this. Would you be willing to share a bit about your own journey with the struggles of loneliness and what happened for you?

Nick: 7:02

Yeah. And I think, you know, Loneliness then in itself is when you have. Feelings of isolation when you feel you don't belong or you don't connect. So in that instance, I could be in the office surrounded by colleagues and feeling lonely. I could be with my family and perhaps not feeling the connection with them. What, happened then, and in my case and what I see in many others, if you lose. The connection with yourself, then it's very difficult to connect with others. I was not living my purpose in that sense. I did not have a good physical health and mental health at my most challenging times. And if you add, you know, some addictions to that, then it's in this stressful world, bad habit can easily flip over to an addiction, which it did for me in my lowest points when I turned into, alcoholism. and then I lost completely the connection with people. So I felt very, very isolated.

Jean: 7:53

And you talk in your book a bit about the impact of redundancy also, I think on taking you. In a bit of that journey, you know, we, are hearing a lot in the media about people being very concerned about their jobs, and I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing a bit about how redundancy impacted you on that part of your journey.

Nick: 8:15

Yeah, certainly. So I had a good career. Everything was going well. I've been in a couple of jobs, been promoted and felt I was liked. Everything was going well. And that came on top of coming out on top of university where I was a scholarship student, high achiever, perhaps looking back at myself, identifying myself as an anxious overachiever, nevertheless. In my role when I did perform well, and this is taking us back to around, you know, 2005, 2006, when I worked in Vietnam, I was suddenly terminated from a job and I was not ready for that. That came completely outta the blue to me and I basically lost my identity. I lost my confidence and I didn't know how to explain this to anyone. I didn't know what to tell my wife or, I didn't know what to tell my family, not even my parents or friends or others around me because I had to come up with a story here because wow. Terminated, you know, that, that was a lot of stigma around that. And, but I managed to get over that. I got a new job and put my career back on track and worked my way up again for five years until I was promoted into a more senior role in that company and moved over to Indonesia. Just as I went over there, the company was sold and, went through an acquisition and I was let go again. So in that time it was like ripping the carpets under me and I completely lost myself and I pushed everyone in the world a away from me, including my. Ex-wife, we had been married 13 years by then. I asked her to move home. I needed to deal with this myself. And my son was then five and she moved with him. And, also was feeling so insecure in my new job, which I managed to land and that I resigned from that as well because I just couldn't, deal with any pressure. It was just too much anxiety.

Jean: 10:00

So there's two things I'm hearing here. I think one is this piece that we can get so, identified with work that when we are made redundant sometimes or when something else happens, we, we can't find our own identity in that space, away from that kind of identity of who I am and what I do for a job. So that's one thing. But then the other thing I think is that the, the ongoing anxiety I'm hearing that happens after you've been made redundant once, and that kind of, and then it happened to you twice, and then I imagine that anxiety just rose that sense of, wow, this could happen again. I need to either manage the anxiety or I need to take charge of my life so that I'm not exposed to this again.

Nick: 10:44

Exactly. And, you know, being an expat then in a foreign country where, you know, your work, employment, and the workplace is related to, your status in the country and everything else. And you might only have 30 or 90 days to leave the country if you're made redundant. So that means for many that you have to pull the child out of the school, which happened in my case. And, you know, the whole life can turn into a complete chaos overnight. And that's what happened. And I was not ready. And I don't think companies are doing enough to support the employees in these instances and understanding how challenging it is, especially if you're away from your home country. In your home country, you have, typically perhaps have some relatives, some friends or family who can support you and even to let you stay with them for a while. And then it's easier also to get a new position and get a new income. But if you are abroad, then it's much more challenging. so I'm not alone in this. I hear these stories indeed now on a weekly basis, people going through this and I'm now trying to help and coach people to be prepared for it. We gotta have a plan B and we need to be more prepared, and that is something that is, I think, very important these days.

Jean: 11:51

Thanks. Could you say a bit more about the concept of plan B, because I know that's something that you write a bit about as well.

Nick: 11:59

Yeah, and the plan B is perhaps not so accepted by the company and your boss. They are trying to balance you and push you the other way they want you in the office and to get on doing with the things. And I'm quite entrepreneurial and creative, so I keep coming up with new concepts, new website, blogs, articles, podcasts, and everything like that. And the companies I've been with many times are coming to me. You know, you cannot do that. You cannot do this. So it's a balance act and my learning is to try to check in with whoever we report to and try to make it, something that you do that adds value to your current company, but it also sets you up perhaps for something in the future. But it's also, Jean, what you spoke about on one of the previous episodes. We gotta be out there and do networking and build professional relationships to prepare for that rainy day.

Jean: 12:45

Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent agree. The shock that I see when some people who I've coached, for example, have been made redundant and hadn't invested in their network up to that point has been really hard. That kind of sense of, wow, now I've got to build a network and I'm feeling a bit depleted by being made redundant. So, so we do need to have that network nurture it because we, it's part of our plan B, it really. Yeah. Do you see any difference in how men and women are experiencing this or are more men than women experiencing it? Or what? Yeah. What do you see is happening?

Nick: 13:23

Well, Jean, in this world of, you know, diversity, it's a topic that I'm always a bit, careful when I answer, but since you asked it, I, I'd be happy to say that. I did a lot of research into this and I spoke to both men and women, and I interviewed them for my book and surveyed them and what it. What occurs to me is it seems like women have a few close friends who they are a bit more honest and vulnerable with when it comes to men, including myself. I had great friends, but we typically go and play golf, have a game of you know, soccer or table tennis, or we go to the bar and watch sport and we have a great time today we are laughing, but we are not sharing what, what is really on our mind and the big challenges. That is me generalizing. But that's very much what I see, and as you can imagine, For the women, if you have a close, a few close friends and you are telling them what's going on, the natural instinct for someone when you hear something, especially if it's your friend, is to help them. So we, men are missing out and we need to be more open and vulnerable. And that's what I'm trying to encourage, not only women, but especially the men to step up the game.

Jean: 14:26

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is a societal shift. I think that it's not been okay, this is a huge stereotype and generalization, but it hasn't been okay in many cultures for men to talk about their feelings. It's been a much, it's been kind of associated. Elsewhere, let's say. But, in order for us to take the stigma away from mental health generally, I think it's really important that we are all talking about feelings and what's going on for us, because then it brings it out of the darkness and helps people become better and more well by being able to talk about it.

Nick: 15:03

Absolutely. We need to talk about feelings, and that's, you know, the gift of recovery, which I found because that's what it's all about in all these. And it doesn't matter if you come into recovery because you a shopping addict or if it's about gambling or if it's about alcohol or drugs or whatever it is, they're all the same. And it's about, you know, letting go of the ego and sharing about your feelings, your struggle, getting that sympathy and finding a better path ahead.

Jean: 15:29

Yeah. So, important. I also think, so I'm a person that's not ashamed to talk about my feelings. It's something I've done a lot about, but I think that when I had my really, really low period, actually I withdrew in a way that wasn't really very natural for me. So I also think there's something about learning when we're in a very low period. To not withdraw because we need people more during that period than we do almost at any other time in our lives. So it's a kind of a tension of finding it within ourselves to reach out to people during that period.

Nick: 16:05

Yeah, absolutely. And we might come to that later on as we are discussing my book. That was something I looked at also when I wrote that.

Jean: 16:11

Yeah, so well, let's come onto that now then. In your book you talk about five, steps, I would say both for prevention and recovery. If they're there, could you, could you talk us through those five steps?

Nick: 16:26

Yeah, it'd be my pleasure to do so because I think, you know, coming into recovery myself then five years ago after I hit rock bottom, it was absolutely wonderful to see this, you know, The beautiful world of recovery programs, and as you say, it doesn't have to be that you have to go to hit rock bottom to find these steps, but in a recovery program, there's basically 12 steps. Normally you have about the 12 step program, but what I write about in my book is five steps. So it's the shortcut. So if you're not hit rock bottom and you want to tune up yourself, then this was basically what I can show, you today and the listeners, that thought the good takeaways because so many people. Asked me already when I was in one or two months into recovery, they kept asking me, Nick, what has happened to you? What have changed? You are completely different and in a positive way. So everyone asks. And that's why I thought I better write this down, so let me take you through the steps then briefly. And the first step then is, taking stock. So if you think of a shop owner, they normally do perhaps an audit to a stock take once a month or once a quarter when we really look at inventory. But a question here, and you would know this Jean as a coach, it's important we start by looking at this and it doesn't matter if in coaching you look at it, the wheel of life or whatever it is. But it's really to do that stock take, and that is what I was asked to do when I came into recovery with a sponsor. I was given a sponsor. If you don't have a sponsor, then a coach or a mentor, you can do it with someone to take stock.

Jean: 17:53

Yeah, and by taking stock, you are really talking about, kind of bringing to the surface what's happening and talking about it and kind of seeing where things are. Have I got that right?

Nick: 18:05

Yeah, so basically what I was asked by my sponsor in the recovery program, and I could use pen and paper or a spreadsheet, and it was to write down. All the things and be brutally honest with it about that was not right in my life. So in this instance, I was overweight. My diet was not good. I did not sleep well. I did not exercise. And, but I also had to list down all relationships that were broken, all the hurt. And the people, that, you know, I might have heard today ever hurt me, and I had to go back all the way to my childhood to think through. So I, I remember digging out all my high school pictures and looking at the photos, and when I was thinking about people, if it gave me some pain looking at this person and remembering something, I had to write that down because we had to basically, Your whole life, and every workplace. I had to think through all my colleagues, was it something still there? And some people actually write down perhaps 400 items. So I had about 60, 70 items that I wrote on that list.

Jean: 19:03

Wow. There's a lot of forgiveness of self and others in that journey, I imagine. And asking for forgiveness of. Self and others. Yeah.

Nick: 19:13

Yeah, it was painful going through it. It was painful going through it, but, and I could not have done it alone. So first I had a sponsor who did it with me. Plus I was in a recovery group where others were going through it. So you could hear, from people who were going through the challenging time, but others who'd gone through it. And they were sharing how it changed their life to go through this episode because we cannot afford, to have walk around with those pains when we think about people or incidents. Yeah.

Jean: 19:36

No. Absolutely. So it's that thing that if things are, uh, being pushed down, they have hold more power than us bringing them up to the surface. Yeah, for sure. The second step was asking for help, I think.

Nick: 19:53

Yes. The difficult one of asking for help. Right. And even my friend Andy Lo Patta, he wrote a book, about asking for help, right? And, this is what it's about. It's about then taking that list and looking. Line by line, who can I talk to this about? you know, in my case, I had to go see a doctor and I needed to get a life coach to help me get back my physical help and had to get the trackable devices to track my sleep and basically to get back in everything in order again. And that's what it's about. In that second step, just, going over the list with your coach, sponsor and discussing, you know, who can help me with? Of this or that. And often there's a lot of anonymous, organizations with volunteers who can help you with the most of the things these days.

Jean: 20:37

Brilliant. And you've already talked a bit about this, but getting healthy is your step three, and that's such a fundamental part of your own journey, I think. But it would be great to hear how you see the importance of that.

Nick: 20:52

Yeah, absolutely, because, I wanted to focus on the inside first before I could really focus on the outside. And in order to do that, I had to get really healthy so that my mind could be clear again, my body could be clear. So I had admitted before in the step one that I had an alcohol problem. In step two, I had found an anonymous group where people were supporting each other with that, and I had to remove the alcohol, and that's what I did in the first step. And I'm coming up to five years, now, next week actually since that happened. And, but I was really getting healthy then also working with my coach. To set up some targets. First it was just start walking and then setting up bigger and bigger health goals. And I realize, and I call this in my book, also the Natural Happy Pill, because I was in such a deep depression that the doctors had to give me medication for my depression and so on. But I managed to taper off that as I started to increase the exercise instead. And it really took over and I've been without medication. Now for about four and a half years and exercise and a healthy diet and getting a good night's sleep and all the, back to basics, but you know, if we are busy executives, entrepreneurs, it's easy. We forget that. But nothing else can happen, unless we address these first.

Jean: 22:06

Yeah. That's so fundamental, isn't it? And it's a bit of a vicious cycle because if we're caught in a really long days, Making time for that piece of getting healthy, for making time to prepare healthy food. Those kinds of things go out the window very easily. So we, it's about how to make sure we prioritize them in those pressurized busy days that we are living. Yeah.

Nick: 22:30

Yeah, absolutely. It's about having it all around you at all time.

Jean: 22:34

Yeah. Making, making a plan is my experience of that too is so important. Okay. Step number four is about relationships, so it'd be great to hear

Nick: 22:45

Yeah, so now you sorted out yourself, you're better in back bit more health, so you're more confident about yourself. You're thinking clearer, then it's time to reach out. So the people you identify then, in step one, uh, where perhaps you hurt some people. And in my instance, for example, I had hurt my sister a few years earlier and, we were at the family lunch and she gave a Coca-Cola to my son. And I thought he was too young. He should not drink, Coca-Cola. So I. Pulled my son off the table and I stormed off without saying anything.,after that we didn't speak, or we might have just said hello at the family gathering, but we didn't have a good conversation for the next two years. And that was one incident, and that was the person that I wrote on the list. And I then got help with my sponsor, you know, how to prepare, to go back to make an apology, make amends, and saying, you know, uh, this is what I've done. This is what I'm going through. Now I'm on a better path and I want to really say sorry for what happened. back then, that's not who I am now. And of course most of the people will forgive you, and if they don't, it's not about that. It's about cleaning your side of the street and keeping that clean so you have a clear conscious moving forward, with all your relationships and. You might also wanna ask then what about, you know, if it was an ex-boyfriend a long time ago who I heard and should I go back to him, no, the answer is no. If you are perhaps risking that this person has married now and you're damaging something, then you shouldn't. Then you can perhaps do a prayer or write a letter that you're throwing the rubbish bin or burn the letter. But at least you've written and you've done some action. So again, on your side of the street you have cleaned up. This relationships when you're thinking about it moving forward. And in my case also, I'd say because I'd been terminated, that was the pain that I walked around with against my company, my own bosses, my hr, and I had to really go over this. And in most instances it was writing a letter praying on it and forgiving them for how I felt they treated. But it was also digging out what was my side of the street and just within me, between me and my sponsor to take responsibility for.

Jean: 24:49

Yeah, this is such an important point because we all of us hold, can hold grudges against people, particularly for things that happen at work. We can really, you know, get very angry about. I've had a few things happen in my career and, That, you know, looking back on them we're incredibly painful things people did, and we have to let those go because it actually only destroys ourselves. I think by holding onto them, it's really only us that it hurts. Ultimately, if we don't forgive, if we don't say that happened in the past, it's the hurt continues within us. They're probably not even thinking about it. So I think it's really important to let those things. Yeah, I am really intrigued about the last one because it's a topic close to my heart, and this is about the importance of purpose in any journey I think, of being sustainable in our working lives. So I'd really love to hear how that connects into this work name.

Nick: 25:55

Well, in the world of recovery, when it comes to purpose, it's about deflating your ego, looking for something that perhaps is greater than yourself and the universe, and not thinking that the whole universe. Centers around you. Comes to senior executives, business owners, many have perhaps been set up on a pedestal. You had your own lift card, you go to your own floor, you have all the, all these perks, right, that perhaps make you feel that you are, you know, you are something and the ego is sort of getting what it wants. But this is very damaging and very dangerous. so you've got to go through this step in a recovery program. And for anyone who I, again, who has, who just wanted to do a tune up, we need. Really think about this, is the ego running the show or is am I part of something that is bigger? And in my instance then, as I went through this and as I look back at my life and the life I patched together, now it's a life full of service and trying to every day be there for others. And including this morning, I had a call with, one good old friend for 20 years ago who's going through a very difficult time now in Australia. And I'm guiding him through these steps and being there for him and supporting him, and that makes me feel good, and that is now my purpose to help others to go through these steps.

Jean: 27:14

Yeah. That's so fundamental, isn't it? Also I think causing some of our problem is when we become so fixed on what's right for me and not thinking about people in the wider context and how am I serving, how am I helping others? Yeah. So, so fundamental to our own wellbeing. Yeah. I seeking, if you were to offer some recommendations to people about looking after themselves and preventing if you like, what are a couple of things that you would say? Absolutely, for sure. Do this.

Nick: 27:50

The first thing is the hardest part perhaps here it's about being honest and it's back to that. Then my. Step is taking stock, taking an honest look at yourself. This means you cannot hide. You know, it's about putting down if you, in my, like in my case, have a drinking problem, it has to be there, it has to be addressed. So many times we are making excuses for. anything, that, you know, we sign up for gym membership, but then we don't show up because we are so busy. But it's about, yeah, interaction and really, really taking a serious look at this. But again, here also my point is we cannot do this alone. We are not strong enough as human beings to deal with these things alone. And that's why we need to work with coaches, mentors. Belong to mastermind groups with other people, to get the sympathy, to get the support and have someone who's ahead of us and then, and to hold us accountable to make it happen. So that's my call to action. Be honest and don't be shy to ask help and get involved.

Jean: 28:45

Come together with an individual or a group of people for that support. Yeah, absolutely. Completely agree. Nick, thank you so much for being so vulnerable yourself. You're a real role model in talking about this and sharing your experience and what you've learned, from through it with others, and I'm sure you are providing enormous support to people and, you've been a bit. Shy and mentioning, I know that you are also, your exercise has taken on extreme measures that you are now doing triathlons and things, so you are, you've become really quite an athlete I think is, uh, would that be a good description?

Nick: 29:24

Yes. You know, and it could be said, you know, jumping from one bad addiction to healthy addiction. So I also have to manage that so it doesn't run, loose, right? So what I've done is that, in my training now, I also don't set my own schedule or train my own hours. I have a coach there as well. I, I have a coach who give me a plan every Sunday. I get the training plan for the week and I stick to the plan. So I don't argue with that, which means I don't skip it, but I also don't do additional and I try to also do as much of it as I can with a group. So I get socializing because otherwise isolate myself working too much. So this, I sign up for it. That means I'm getting out, getting outside of my comfort zone, meeting people, exercising, getting healthy. So it's all linked back to my journey in making sure that I'm stay on the right path moving forward.

Jean: 30:14

Brilliant. Brilliant. Thank you for sharing that. So the last question which I ask everyone is, do you have a book or a podcast that you would recommend to people?

Nick: 30:24

Yes, I do actually. And it's, Tom Goodwin. He wrote a book called Digital Darwinism. He's talking about how, humans and computers are meeting each other, and he's absolutely fascinating. He was actually over in. Singapore a couple of weeks ago, and we had the pleasure of having him also to give a talk at E G N and, it's very timely. So anyone look up Tom Goodwin, he has the book, but he also has, a lot of content on his blog and on his LinkedIn.

Jean: 30:50

Brilliant. Thank you. We will put a link to him and to his book in the show notes. Nick, thanks again. Thank you so much for coming and being part of this journey, and we will put a link to, to how people can find you and find E G N and find your book in the show notes. But yeah, once again, thanks for joining me today.

Nick: 31:10

Thank you very much for having me and for helping us to remove the stigma of these conversations.

Jean: 31:15

Good. Brilliant. My pleasure.