Ep. #53 Guiding Your Team Through Change with Uen-Li Chia 

Jean: 0:07

Hi everyone, and welcome to Making Sense of Work. It's my pleasure today to welcome Uen-Li Chia to the podcast. Welcome, Wendy.

Uen-Li: 0:17

Hello.

Jean: 0:18

Hi. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Let me tell you a bit about Uen-Li. She's been working in Shell since 2002 and is currently head downstream, ultimate potential and business advisor to the downstream director. She has worked across many functions such as operations, pricing, sales strategy, m and a, procurement and supply chain within the fuels and lubricants. That's a broad career, Uen-Li, and of course you might already be imagining that she thrives in making sense. Of a messy world and is now working to drive Shell's downstream business to achieve its ultimate potential. And this is really an exciting transformation journey, and we are going to talk about that today. And it's requiring her and the people in her team to really know their North Star whilst closing this knowing and doing gap and looking at how to use digital use data and leadership discipline. Uen-Li is also really passionate about talent development, and she has been faculty in several Shell learning programs and in 2018 started up the Asia Talent Acceleration Program within Shell, which takes a deeper look into unleashing Asian leadership potential externally. She's a faculty associated with the Lynn Hart Group for the Leadership Influence Curriculum at. NUS Business School and Nan Yang Technological University and the Leadership Influence for Early Executives Program. And also recently, she has become a senior advisor to the NUS Business School's Enterprise Leadership for Transformation program, where she's coaching and mentoring a group of SMEs on their growth and reinvention plans. Prior to Shell when Lee worked in the Singapore Economic Development Board and prior to that in Banyan Company in Boston, Massachusetts. And in Singapore, she has an MA honors in natural science from Cambridge and studied in that theoretical physics. So that's a, a deeply curious field. And she also has an MBA from MIT. I met Wen Lee because. Through friends and colleagues, and one of the things that she's really passionate about is creativity. And we've put a link to her, Instagram in the show notes and you can see how Uen-Li is taking her business experience, leadership experience, and her creativity into creating these fantastic, visuals. And you can follow her on Uen-Li notes. And so welcome to the podcast, Uen-Li.

Uen-Li: 3:07

Thank you very much. You make it sound like I'm really, really important.

Jean: 3:13

Well, let's see. I think you are really important, so we can certainly explore that today. How's work at the moment?

Uen-Li: 3:22

Work is interesting. I think we're right now in the middle of navigating change, you know, both internally and externally. And, you know what I'm coming up against is the old, you know, the crashing of paradigms, right? The old versus the new, how you should lead, how you should not lead, how you should think about energy, how you shouldn't think about energy. And so it's actually a really, really interesting time to navigate this change. But at the same time, there's a lot of uncertainty. So trying to keep. People focused on the job get, trying to get people calm and assured that, you know, whatever uncertainties are ahead will are gonna be, you know, navigable, if that's such a word. But it's really, you know, around this whole thing about how we navigate change together.

Jean: 4:09

And we are gonna talk a bit about that today because I know you bring some really fresh thinking to how do we navigate change and how do we do that in a, in a way that's good for people. Um, when you have a really good day at work, what does that look like for you?

Uen-Li: 4:25

I think for me it's really about, and this is gonna sound really philosophical, but it, it's really about, knowing that people get it. Can do it because I'm always very conscious in a really large organization I'm just one person. So even if I get it, nothing actually happens really. but if you are able to transform and kind of get that little switch on in people's heads or even the fire in the belly, then you know that it's gonna be okay. That people get it and they're gonna be able to do it in their own way. And that's for me, you know, what I've really, really try and work towards is how do you spot that fire?

Jean: 5:06

And what you've said there, I think is it's not just sparking the fire, but it's helping create space for people to do it in their own way.

Uen-Li: 5:13

Yep, yep. Um, too long have we been kind of saying, you know, I know a lot and let me just tell you how it should be. That's the old style of leadership. But now more in the uncertainty. And because it's so large, everyone sees a slightly different perspective. And so all you want for them is to have a common shared sense of purpose, but also for them to feel that agency and empowerment for them to do the right thing there. And then, because it's all about capturing the moment. And so that's why it's really about in their own way, but they need to understand the context in which we want them to act.

Jean: 5:51

Yeah. No, I think that's really important because we actually need everybody to bring their own creativity to work in these challenging times, and so if we are being too didactic about how that should happen, then we're not helping people bring that creativity to work.

Uen-Li: 6:09

Indeed. And I think especially for a large organization like ours, where you're kind of spread across many different countries. The worldview is so different, and so if you just say it's just one view, then you end up almost mismatching with the markets that you might be operating in. And so, you know, how do you get that creativity? And we've got so many people, so many smart people. You know, as, as colleagues, it's how do you unlock each and every one for them to be at their best every moment and for them to all work together to be able to make that change, that stakes, right? So that's always the challenge that I have. It's like, how do you do that? And how do you communicate in a way that really relates to them and connects to them, and not just on the head side of things.

Jean: 6:53

We're gonna talk about that as well today. Good. could you just tell us a little bit about your career? I've shared your bio, but it'd be great to hear a bit about how you came to be doing what you are doing, cuz you've not been on a typical journey I don't think to get here.

Uen-Li: 7:08

well, I think that life's realities also happen. So when you hear about it, it's not as if like everything kind of happened because I planned it. So, but when I first started, I was a scholar, so I worked in the Singapore government and, I think the formative years was actually really kind of like walking, around with my traditional industry sectors, you know, food and beverage and printing and packaging. And we were charged with actually helping them. Automate upgrade, otherwise they would not be competitive for Singapore. And you know, Singapore's really small and so a lot of it was kind of walking the ground, seeing the factories, understanding what the challenges were, and then trying to say, as a government officer, what could we do to be able to develop this sector? that was interesting for a while, but then I realized that, It takes about 20 years to do something. You know, the next opportunity was to do my MBA and say, how do I get closer to the business? How do I actually try and, effect change faster? And so, business school was great. And from there I went on to consulting and company and it was actually a re, I mean, it ages me. I know it dates me a little bit, but, where I was in consulting at that point in time was really in the middle of the.com boom. And so we were grappling with how do you make money, you know, with clicks and water, how do you make money with the, the internet and how do you actually, you know, turn things around, right? So can you ever make money? Right? And there was lots of money. People were putting in license, you know, money for 3G licenses and everything. And sometimes you would never know where that actually came back. Many often we would pulled, we would pull a client from the brink and say, well, you shouldn't be spending that much money, which mean Richmond, there was probably not a very good consultant, say, don't spend money. but at the end of the day, I think we got loyalty. And that taught me a little bit about, just making sure that you stay true north. You know, speaking the truth, people may not like you for that particular short-term moment, but six months later, one month, one year later, They might think about it and say, you know, You had my best interest at heart and they will come back and that loyalty stays with you. after that I had kids and so then life of consultant is not easy. so I took a year out, and then I joined Shell after that. And in a way it's a nice natural progression because when you're doing a lot of hidden thinking, then you wanna take, can it actually last? What am I advising? And would it be able to last? you know, is it real? and so, you know, in Shell, I've had many opportunities. You see me jump around. I'm probably one of refu that, has stayed in Singapore, throughout. And the opportunity was really because what, when I was surrounded by people that were being promoted by being expatriated everywhere, I had a family, I had, responsibilities and I was like, no, I want to be able to move when I want to, how I want to, into whatever place I want to. I, I need that kind of agency for myself. So at a really young age, I decided that that was it. Um, and so a lot of, you know, the time in Shell has been about learning about businesses, is about learning about versatility. And in a way it's also about learning about virtual management way before it became in vogue, so much so that it be, it became a superpower. And during the Covid years, because it was something that was so natural to me already being able to tell what people think. Even just sound of their voice or the tone of the voice. You could tell there was something wrong and that ability became really important during the covid time.

Jean: 10:46

I really love what you're describing here about your. Career doing it from Singapore. So you are in the middle of a very successful career, and it is often said, not just here in Singapore but in other countries as well, that if you work for a global organization, you have to do your overseas experience as a part of that in order to progress. And you've proven the point that actually you can do that. You can have a really successful career. It's about how you approach it, I think, and what you're describing I think is about how you. How you learn to lead virtually. But I'd love to hear, yeah, a bit more about that, about how do you approach a career where you are working from your home country and you achieve that kind of global recognition.

Uen-Li: 11:35

I think it came when, because I had kids really young when I was in Strat, when I was in str strategic consulting. It comes to a point where, you know, the heart is willing, you know, the, the capability is there. But the physical body is weak. You can only do so many things and you just realize you can't have it all, all the time at the same time. And so that prioritization becomes really important and you have to, it's a self-reflection, right? what's really important to me and what do I need to make it work? Then how do I be as successful as I can? Now, am I the most senior person in Shell? No. Right? Do I hope to be? Probably not. Because, you know, there are certain limitations that come when you don't, you know, when you're not able to be there at the drop of a hat in all sorts of locations. But having said that, you can make a, you know, pretty successful career path by thinking translatable skills. Again, this was before it was involved. do you just see me for my domain knowledge, or do you see me for being able to create and solve problems? That no one else can do because they've not seen quite the same thing that you have with a different perspective. And so, you know, a lot of it then comes in from, where do I add value and how do I go and make a difference? Right now I say I'm, you know, business advisors are in internal term, it's really chief of staff, you know, for which is a more recognizable, I'm the first virtual chief of staff for director no one has done it before. And so you don't stop yourself by saying it's never been done before. you kind of think, now how can I do it with the skillset that I have? and again, this is an ability to virtually navigate and communicate and engage and build trust comes in because I don't feel that as a barrier. And sometimes time zones help because when he's sleeping, I can actually get stuff done. And vice versa. So it's really about trying to turn it around and say, how can I be more successful given the constraints that I have, and to be able to thrive, in that particular way.

Jean: 13:33

mm Fantastic. It's a mindset thing

Uen-Li: 13:36

Yes, it is.

Jean: 13:37

how you take that.

Uen-Li: 13:38

Yeah, it is. And I think what I've learned as well is, you know, how do you actively listen? how if you don't have the body language, because you don't have the face to face, you know, what can you do to make up for it? So sometimes I feel like dad Ebel right in the Marvel universe where, you know, he's blind. And so you've gotta almost build your other senses to compensate for what you don't have and what people take for granted. it works, it sometimes does not work, but it's about trying to navigate that and trying to make it, you know, work to you. Now, am I happy with the choices I made and the trade-offs that I made? I personally am, but, you know, it doesn't work for every single person. So this is what I coach people as well. It's like, what do you really want? Because you. No, there are sacrifices with the people on top. You just un, you just see what they were successful at. You don't quite know what's going on underneath.

Jean: 14:33

Yeah, we never know. We never know what's going on underneath unless we are curious. Yeah. Thank you. I think that's a really inspiring way of thinking about it and I know, for many people it's a question that comes up, so it's really great to hear you describing it and to hear that, you know, you are living proof that we can do that. You lead a lot of change that's been a part of your career. It's been a feature of your career and it would be lovely if you could talk a bit about how you see leading cultural change. How do you approach it? What are the things that we can all learn from you, from your experience about change?

Uen-Li: 15:15

am no expert in cultural change. I'm still trying to figure it out.

Jean: 15:19

I don't think anybody is an expert in cultural change, so I think that's the truth.

Uen-Li: 15:27

I think for me, I always start with what are we trying to achieve, right? one thing I've learned is that you can do anything, but you have to be really clear about the outcome and purpose that you're going for, because otherwise, you know, you end up being a little bit of a muddled mess and you can't kick people through it. So you've gotta really keep it simple. And I think at the heart of cultural change is really about holding space. And communication. And what do I mean by that? It's change. If we've triggered change ourselves, we are like, oh yeah, we, you know, we, we can do it right Because we are the ones that had the agency to do it. But if someone forces that change on you, especially we don't see the value of it, you get a bit grumpy, you fight it, and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of. human emotion that's involved in this. and I guess for me it's really about, you know, if you're trying to get change, you're trying to get people to feel safe enough to voice it out, to be grumpy. but to say that, Hey, sorry, you know, we need to go on. Sometimes you agree with them and you have to be honest about that, but it's about giving that space for them to air that emotion. Too often we try and say we're doing change from the top, but the leaders grapple with it. Maybe the senior leaders grapple with it and then they're like, okay, we've decided we're going, forgetting that everybody else hasn't quite had the same luxury of being able to. Chew the fat to mull it over and say, yeah, you know, this is the right thing. They're not given to be able to voice it. So it becomes, it feels as if your freedom has been taken away from you in, in many ways. So, so communicating with that, giving them the space, but at the same time saying, okay, I hear you, but we do need to stop moaning and we need to move on. Right? So there is that slow, that level of inevitability that, you know, we do have to shift, but I give you space to kind of figure out. How you wanna do it in your own time. So giving as much as you can that agency back. And so for me, when I talk about change, it's really about minimum standards. You know, so often we say, this is the standard you need to go to, and this is where I unlock the mother and me, right? It's like mothering children. You're trying to do a little step at a time. You're trying to encourage people because you're trying to rebuild that confidence and the courage to try. Right? And so you're trying to say, Get there. And then when they kind of beat the standard, you celebrate and they say, you know, I can actually do this bit more. And you're like, yeah, you know, why don't you tell everybody else that? So the communication needs to be multi-dimensional communication's, not just me, to the masses, because that feels like But it's about building a community to crowdsource ideas. What are you grappling with? You know, we found that, sometimes when we try to do solutioning with each and every one, you know, you kind of get. Inundated with too many deferring views, but when you put'em all in the room and you let them hear each other, they're like, no, I can solve that. You know, that's the way I solve it. Or they say, yeah, you know, this is a bigger problem than mine, so maybe it will PR deprioritize. So if you can trust and give that space to a community, they invariably come to the right solutions themselves. But you need to have. The courage to let that go. And you need to be able to listen really carefully. so this, again, the skills in virtual management have come in, right? So you know, actively listening, asking them what's really beneath the words, what are they trying to unplug? So often we jump the solution mode, but it's like, what do you feel? And being able to talk about this. Um, and makes it a lot easier for others to understand and then I think that's the crux of change. I do change culture change. I call it brownfield culture change because it's, culture is, we are not, we are an old company. We've got lots of subcultures and we've got very successful businesses with not pretty proud of their, what they've achieved so far. and you're trying to figure out how do you get them. Do something slightly differently. So you've gotta almost celebrate or acknowledge where they've come from, but at the same time say, this is a bar embarrassment in them that I need you to do. And and it's really gratifying to see when they start to incorporate it into their own. Because when you, when they start incorporating it and not thinking of it as a separate thing, you know it's gonna stick because it's gonna be part of them now,

Jean: 19:58

Yeah.

Uen-Li: 19:59

yep.

Jean: 20:00

Well, there's so much of what you are describing. Of course, I would say this because of my coaching practice and our coaching business, but it's actually using a coaching approach because you're describing empathy, deep listening, being aware of, um, listening beyond the presenting issue. The helping of people to come to their own solutions is essentially coaching.

Uen-Li: 20:23

With tens of thousands of people. Yes. So I don't talk to everybody, but you are trying to give that space for feedback loops and everything, and you're trying to build an ecosystem that supports each other because ultimately, like I said, I'm only one person. I can move away tomorrow to another job. But does that mean that the whole support system, you know, breaks away? You hope not. And so a lot of it is like, how do I build this network so that it's self-sufficient and self-sustaining if they do believe that it helps them. And so of course, at the start of my change journey, I have to think really deeply myself. How is this making their lives easier? How am I connecting the dots for them? You know, why do I believe that this is going to really. Be a step change improvement. I've gotta kind of like convince myself and talk about it. And then how do I, and this is the difficult part, right? How do I really boil that down to one or two actions? Because at the end of the day, I can give you a list of 20, but you'll never follow it. But if I can just say, just do these two things, that's all I ask of you and make it really easy. That ability to be able to bring that into what we call standard work ability to kind of say, what will I do today? That becomes then about habit making and habit formation. For me, it's tiny movements because the more you do it every single day, the more you will improve. The problem is that sometimes we like big things that are difficult to do, and so we do it once in six months, and you know what? The momentum disappears pretty soon.

Jean: 22:02

And I think some of what you are describing, I think is about how we help people who are struggling to engage or have got change fatigue. I, you know, myself included, I think we having to move and change so fast, but I guess I'm curious about how do you support people through that place where they're saying, oh, not another change. Don't make me change again. You know, how do you support them through that?

Uen-Li: 22:26

I think it's, it is, again, back to empathy, but I think one of my biggest reflections last year, because we were going through a major restructuring, this is where my theoretical physics comes in, though you don't really need the theory, just the physics, um, but it's really about resonant frequency of the organization. So for me, you know, if you go too fast, you create lots of noise because you as a one person can be super busy and you can do, you know everything at two times speed. But when you have a large organization that's following in your wake, That two times speech just creates a lot of noise. And so you've gotta kind of like figure out, if you go to slow, you don't actually kind of get to the tipping point at all, right? So you've gotta kind of almost find that resonant frequency that allows you to amplify. So there were moments in time when I had to slow down, and, you know, give space to people to digest the change that they had. And I said, don't slide back. You've gotta almost redefine your idea of success. Success doesn't mean moving on to the next kpi. You know, kind of like upping the game. Yet again, success for a large organization could well be, we didn't slide back, where it mattered. While other things larger, you know, things on restructuring happens.

Jean: 23:42

Love it. I love this idea of the, I knew your theoretical physics would be related at some points, and this idea of resonance is so true because the opposite of resonance, I guess, is dissonance.

Uen-Li: 23:57

Yes.

Jean: 23:57

whether that's the definition of it, but when we're in

Uen-Li: 24:00

I don't know. Yeah.

Jean: 24:01

happens. You know? It's really, we're not, we're not in harmony with each other, so Yeah. That's fantastic. I know creativity plays a massive part of your life, your personal life and your work life, and that you are, kind of deepening your connection to your creativity at the moment. I'd love you to talk a bit about the relationship between creativity and working in a, you know, old historical organization and how

Uen-Li: 24:31

Engineering.

Jean: 24:31

engineering organization, how you're connecting those.

Uen-Li: 24:37

it's interesting. you know, I've decided that, I spent my. Early life, you know, thinking in boxes, very structured, you know, consulting, physics, everything that's, nicely fitted into boxes. and so now I'm trying to span into creativity, which is really around, you know, how do you, that allows me to be able to engage both sides of the brain. But I think at the right moment as well, because when I think about how we do this, It's really about engaging and communicating with a wider audience, and you already feel the movement, right? When you're too perfect. The squares are all nicely colored. it feels flat. And you don't engage in it. So I'm trying to get over myself and trying to embrace the imperfection, in seeing the beauty around fuzzy logic. You know, again, physics comes in, right? But you know, you're trying to be able to, to leave spaces because that's when creativity actually blooms and you get something quite wonderful if you can control yourself and let go a little bit. and so for me, the creativity comes in many forms. I don't obviously use my Instagram pictures in work, but I've found it unlocks fun and so much, you know, when you're really working really, really hard. And you know, you are always change of a change of a change. You take things very seriously and you just feel as if, gosh, you know, this is a grind and what we're trying to do in terms of just engaging and communicating and just getting people to think in a different way. Is to say how do you do it in an art form? So we have goals, you know, we set goals every single year and we have mid-year reviews and usually it's an award document and I told my team once, I was like, I don't want you because we are all about process and we are all about improvements. And everyone's like super focused on process. I'm like, okay, why don't we do our performance review in an infographic? and my team just looked at me in horror and they're like, oh my God, what are you trying to do? but I said, no, just give it a try. Give it a shot. and do it. And it was so uncomfortable. So a couple of them were smart and they said, well, you know, I can't really draw, but I'll get, you know, a couple of young people in my team to do it for me. Right? And so you're getting engagement because getting different levels of the organization more involved. then there was others that were like, oh, you know, how do I go about doing it? And they try a little bit and you encourage them. And then you get a couple that are going, oh, you know what? I can do animation. And they're like, way out there, right? So, But what was interesting was when it was done and we came together, everyone enjoyed the experience, number one. They, found it fun. Number two, they actually discovered skill sets amongst each other in their own sub-teams because there's always someone that's artistic somewhere. And then I think the third one was that when it came to sharing, we did it on a YaMma page and we said, you know, everyone gets to see what, how we feel and we feel pride. all the way down to, you know, the most junior person in our team, and this was spread across the world. Everybody loved it because they're like, oh my God, you know, for the first time we actually see this pictorially and we kind of see how it all hangs together. I was thinking of doing one to be able to cover it all. Then I'm like, no, it's too good not to share separately. And so we had these things and the one that was fighting me most about it, she was like, you know what? Maybe I need to think about how I communicate differently because it made people see the context and the connections between how we were doing different things and it was so much easier to communicate than in the past. And so, so, just thinking about how you turn it in the head, how do you inject a little bit of fun and a little bit of stretch at the same time, kind of gets people to just think a little bit more on 3d.

Jean: 28:29

Yeah, I think this is so powerful. I've been reading how when we are sitting at our computers, we actually become incredibly two-dimensional, that it's really bad for our peripheral vision, for our ability to kind of think beyond. And so what you are doing by encouraging this, is really helping people to step away from that, me and the computer. Interaction to something bigger and broader and different. And of course that is from a neuroscience perspective, opening up different aspects of our brain to think

Uen-Li: 29:03

Yeah,

Jean: 29:03

to communicate differently. It's fantastic.

Uen-Li: 29:07

and it's memorable and people understand the contact immediately. So then, you know, remember what we were talking about, right? You're trying to get people to understand the context, connect the dots so that they can go and, you know, do what they need to do in the best way possible for them. This is it, right? If you can pic Charlie, pick together a story. That connects, it opens that pathway for people to go, ah, I understand what you're trying to get at now. More than a word, many words can say.

Jean: 29:34

Yes, yes. No, it's fantastic. It's really fantastic. Let's come on to just a couple of final questions. I know you've got a couple of really good examples of critical career moments, and it would be lovely to hear both of those actually. So could you, yeah. Could you share some moments that have been defining in your career?

Uen-Li: 29:57

Okay. so I think the first one was, My real first line management role. And I guess like I said, right, and, I start with my left brain, which is very much around, you know, the science, the science student, and, you know, physics and scholar and all sorts of things, right? So the head got used a lot, especially in consulting. And then I was up for this particular job, for an operations role as aviation operations role. Interestingly, when one of the questions that they asked, you know, prior to shortlisting me was, you know, has she managed a team? And I'm like, of course. I've managed a team. I was in consulting, managed a team of consultants. This particular line management thing was basically. Managing 192 blue collar workers spread across the far east. I was the injection of diversity. I was the first female boss for operations. And so I think I was probably more of a shocked system than they were. and for me it was interesting because a lot of them were not, university educated. A few of them were older than my father at that point in time. And here I was going, oh my God, how am I going to be able to manage this crowd of, you know, really wied men that have been really experienced in the field. and so you have kind of throw a lot of things away because you can't tell them anything, right? Because they know everything and you don't, but. You know, I, first of all, I kind of like said, I'm gonna see all your sites. I'm gonna walk with you. So I woke up at 4:00 AM to go to, K L I A, to see Air Asia refueling. In order to kind of just understand the, you know, the hazards of the environment that they were working in. And so these were some of the examples, and I went to each of things. I've been in, you know, Laos, I've been in Cambodia, you know, you name it, as well as the Singapore Chinese airport to the world, right? Big difference. but I think it goes back down to human, to human connections and spending time with them as we were driving from airfield to airfield. You listen to them about their challenges and what they feel frustrated with. And I'm like, you know what? I can actually help you. because I know how to fight and I know how to, get resources from the central teams, in a way we could kind of work together. And also being quite, Honest and open with my flaws. You know, I was not an airport manager. I have never kinda walked what it is. So being really open to listen to them and to learn from them. And so we had a really happy partnership. And I must say that to this day it's my best. And you know, in my best line manager role, because it really taught me how to lead from the heart, how to care for these people. you know, my biggest. Saying, I hope you don't mind me saying this, but my biggest achievement there was like this when I left, they said, you know what, you know, I didn't realize how useful or how helpful having a female in the team would be. And so a couple of them actually hired, you know, supervisors that were female and that was the start of it. And another one a toy, a toilet. A sitting toilet because, you know, they were gonna allow women to come in because we didn't have women before in, in the Depots. Um, so

Jean: 33:13

the important things and sorting them out.

Uen-Li: 33:16

I know, you know, we, roll out the red carpet for really senior people, but, they're mostly men. And so this was the opportunity, like, you know, how often can you say that someone's built a toilet for me?

Jean: 33:27

That's brilliant.

Uen-Li: 33:28

But, it was one of the, you know, most heartwarming moments and you just realize how much of impact you can make and that's, you know, the thing about really trying to understand where people coming from and their perspectives.

Jean: 33:43

And also, um, meeting each other at a human level

Uen-Li: 33:46

Yes,

Jean: 33:47

it's just, it's about our shared and common humanity that we are wanting to connect with each other.

Uen-Li: 33:52

Yes.

Jean: 33:53

Brilliant. I know there was another story. Can you share the other story?

Uen-Li: 33:58

So the other story is more about, it's not really about big job, but it was really about me coming into my own power. so often when you're a really large organization, you know, they'll say that this is not the way this company does things, right? So, You know, for me, I've heard over and over again coming this experience higher, you know, this is not the way, this is not the way. Right? So after a while you kind of almost take this on as this is the way that we do things around here, right? And, which is not wrong, but it kind of makes you know, think twice about how you can be more effective in certain things. this particular role that I had was, you know, it when you're in a long career. you will come to a moment in time where the jobs don't quite line up neatly, as neatly as you would love it to, and you have a little bit of space and so they say they still like you and you end up at the project role. which is, and for me it was in the middle. well, we were kind of going out of one restructuring and we were kind of like trying to settle into it. And so they said, you know, do you mind doing this project and product portfolio? Not so much do you mind to will you do this? because you know, we haven't got a job for you just yet. Don't worry, we'll look after you, but you know, you need to do this. So I'm like, okay. And the team that I was given were people, were a team of about 15 that were displaced by restructuring and were looking at working for 12 months. And facing in redundancy thereafter. And that during this 12 months is for them to find another job internally or find a job outside. But this was, you know, the, the space that they were given 12 months. And so they said, well, this is your team. So you can just imagine, the kind of work that you're doing. You know, you're not in the best spaces because you know, you yourself have been impacted. But on top of that, you've got a group, a moley crew of people that may or may not be motivated to really work with you. And it was a Tawny issue that we were working on because it's been a problem that the organization has spent decades trying to solve, you know, every once in a while they would've a project on it. And so it's not easy. And so, you know, this was when, you know, I had all these voices in my head, right? This is not the way. I wanna do it this way. But, you know, people are not, not going to accept it until I finally said, you know what? I know that doesn't work because we've been at this problem, you know, multiple times with very high powered people. so maybe just maybe if we're gonna go out, uh, that we go out with a bank and we do it my way, right? What do, what do we have to lose? You know, and we can make it enjoyable. We can make it an adventure and we can just make it something that everyone feels proud of because the people that, were in the team were also. In different spaces. Some were okay in blase and others were put and needed to heal, right? So it looked slightly broken cuz you know, it just does different things to different people. So there were different spaces and I think one of the things that we all agreed was this actually was a very big problem for the organization and we had an opportunity to be able to solve it in a way that we felt could impact. and so when we all came together and we said, you know what? Let's give it a big shot. Let's go out with a big bang. Let's go out. You know, we're saying that we've done this, and we put ourselves together and we also created space. People that needed interview were given time to interview. We were managing in between cuz 15 people, it's easy, even though they cross a globe, you understand? And you try and understand where their hits are at, and you try and. B, empathetic enough to give them that space that they needed, roll forward 12 months. we managed to get leadership to sit up and take, pay attention to us. What they thought was just a problem, just that could not go away, was actually a fundamentally strategic lever for the business. And, what we may pay attention to is that if you don't solve this, then you're never gonna be very competitive. And that put lots of resources suddenly in our way. We had, we had the ability to then incorporate this fully into the business. We had the ability to create new jobs that what some of them, you know, were able to get into. And at the end of the day, I found a job and I've moved on. Obviously I'm still in Shell, but others have met. But we all felt that this was the defining moment for all of us and we could all hang our hats on it really proudly. And we've seen the development since then because it's so, you can only start the journey, but somebody else can take it on from there.

Jean: 38:34

Yeah, great. And you, and you can have a good experience coming outta something that's very difficult and challenging. Yeah. Good. Final question from me then, as we always like to end with, uh, something that's a book or a podcast or something that you would like to share that you, um, think would be helpful for other people.

Uen-Li: 38:56

Well, right now I'm kind of like, this is my year of moments and small moments and top of that. And so the book that I say that I'm reading that kind of made an impact is, story Worthy by Matthew Dicks. you know, and he talks about. how, what are the best stories? It's not the massive ones where you did something heroic, right? Or you survived, an accident or you know, came to the brink of your life or something like that. But it's in small five second moments that if you are watchful enough where you can pick out, that can tell a story that connects you to other people. So it's really about connection points. It's about seeing, you know, being really present home to see. And capture those moments. And so for me, you know, and one of the things that he talks about is like, how do you tell better stories? He says to actually take. Put on a little diary or, well, it's not really a diary, but almost like a spreadsheet in the day. And capture that five second moment in maybe about a sentence or two. No longer than that. It's probably only, you know, interp, you know, able to be interpreted by you only, but it kind of jogs your memory and you can see patterns from that. And for me, that's like, oh, you know, it makes you so much more grateful for the life that you lead and also helps you find those. Connectable moments in order if you wanna get a story to be able to convince somebody else to think about it and influence people.

Jean: 40:20

Fantastic. I'm gonna look at that myself, cuz I think there's something really curious about the beauty of the story in the moment is fantastic. Yeah. Oh, Uen-Li thank you so much for sharing your story. You have a very inspiring story and you've shared it beautifully. there's something for me about. Seeing opportunities and taking opportunities and leading through those in a creative way that I think is very powerful and also such a beautiful impact on the concept of human and how if we are leading from the heart, leading from who we are, leading through human connection is so important. So thank you for coming and joining me and sharing that with us today.

Uen-Li: 41:09

Thank you for having me.