Ep. #57 Creating a Coaching Culture with Lipika Subbiah

Jean: 0:07

Hi everyone, and welcome to Making Sense of Work Today. I'm delighted to be joined by Lipka Subbiah. Welcome to the podcast Lipika.

Lipika: 0:19

Hi Jean. It's such a pleasure to be here today.

Jean: 0:22

Great. Well, I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. Lipika is a global coaching enablement lead at the Center of Excellence at LinkedIn. She spent over 18 years. In sales in different roles and sectors, including four years in sales enablement. She is an ICF certified coach and a Prosky certified change practitioner. Lipika has lived and worked in Asia, Europe, and North America, and is now based out of Singapore, where she lives with her husband, her two teenage children, and her gorgeous and adored dog who maybe will make an appearance today when she's not at work. She's outta nature Hiking or with her nose in a book sounds a bit similar to me, Lipika. So thanks again for joining and welcome to the podcast.

Lipika: 1:20

It's such an honor and a pleasure to be here, Jean, and I'm looking forward to this conversation with you.

Jean: 1:26

Me too. How's work at the moment?

Lipika: 1:31

Work is good and hard, so it's good because yesterday we celebrated our 100th manager being certified in coach training at LinkedIn, so it's a huge milestone. This is a recommended and not a required program, so having a hundred managers. Take the time and the effort to develop their skills and really want to be coaches is a really, really big milestone. And just seeing the momentum grow for coaching warms my heart, so that's been wonderful.

Jean: 2:09

And we're going to talk quite a bit more about that and the impact of that on coaching culture today. You said it's been good and hard. What's the hard part?

Lipika: 2:20

It's no secret that the macro environment for the tech industry and really for all of us has been quite tough, and so there's a lot of pressure on. Managers, sales managers in particular to deliver results. And there's a lot of fear and uncertainty about jobs. And this is my main audience as I'm part of the, sales organization. And so having spent, 18 years in sales, you know, very much feel for them and that impacts me. So my. Learning in all of this has really been to slow down to meet people where they are at and as much as possible, not push enablement timelines or, agendas onto, you know, onto our audience, but really to be empathetic and to be in there with them. So that's been hard, but the learning has been good and is part of the good.

Jean: 3:18

Yeah. And as you were talking, and I know we're gonna talk about this today, I'm really struck by how, being present and using a coaching approach in this space is what everyone needs. We all need to be able to pause and be relational with each other and feel the kind of encouragement and team spirit and all of those things that come about through. Coaching or through just being human actually in that relational space. So important when things are hard.

Lipika: 3:49

Absolutely.

Jean: 3:51

And for you, when you have a really good day at work, what does a really good day look like?

Lipika: 3:58

Yesterday we celebrated the graduation of 25 of our peer coaches from our peer coaching certification program. And it was a very, very good day because we had a select group of individual contributors in sales put in four months time, go through a rigorous certification program, in the fourth quarter of the year. So this is the last quarter of our financial year and having, you know, a group of people make that commitment. and to graduate yesterday, after four months was absolutely amazing because one of the things we did was to capture voices from the coachee that, the coaches had been training because part of their certification is that they're required to, to coach in the field, and they didn't know this was coming. And so they were moved. We were moved just with hearing from, you know, their coaching clients, how just in the span of a few months they were. Changing people's lives and their coaching clients spoke of feeling better, feeling less stressed, being able to do big things and win big deals. And it was just, it was absolutely amazing to experience that. So for me, a good day at work is being an observer to the power of coaching.

Jean: 5:23

Wow. I can hear it. I can hear the energy as you're talking about this. So I am guessing a lot of people would be really curious in your career journey and how you came to be at this. Point where I see you really blending your sales career with your coaching career in this role. So it would be great if you could share a bit about how you got here.

Lipika: 5:48

Yes. So I was, an individual contributor and enterprise sales at LinkedIn in the sales solutions business. And, I found myself spending a lot of my time helping, you know, my peers, my team to really develop their sales skills or improve the sales process. And I really enjoyed doing that. and I found I enjoyed it more than closing deals. So that was a sign to me that, maybe there's an opening to move into sales enablement. And when that opportunity came up, I took it. And so in my last role, I was the sales enablement lead for our sales solutions business for apac. And I was very lucky to have a manager who was a great coach and was also very passionate about coaching. And so the first project we did together was, Create a coaching program for our managers in the region. And that's when I fell in love with coaching and I just thought, This is a much better way of engaging with people. It feels more human. And so, it was at the same time that I met up for lunch with our common friend and another Bailey Balfour Alumnus, Andrew Calvert. And he told me about this brilliant coaching program that he was attending, and he was telling me about everything he'd learned and how much he was enjoying it. And I thought, well, that's what I want to do. And so that's when I signed up for your program and I went through, you know, the ACC, the PCC path, changed the trajectory of my career and my life. I got very involved. I felt competent and more confident to do more coaching work. And so when LinkedIn opened up, a coaching team globally, I thought, well, this is the opportunity of a lifetime and this is a natural evolution to the work I've already been doing. And so I feel I'm very fortunate to be able to work in coaching full-time.

Jean: 7:51

I'm gonna ask you a question sales at all.

Lipika: 7:57

I miss, I miss customers.

Jean: 8:01

Ah, that's interesting. Yeah.

Lipika: 8:04

I loved having conversations with customers and learning about new businesses and learning about different situations, and really working with customers to, you know, put together solutions to solve big problems. I love doing that work and so, That's what I miss about sales.

Jean: 8:30

hmm. That's really interesting because that's, Also the very relational side of sales, isn't it? It's the very much that, building relationships, building, opportunities for conversation and growth for the customer as well as opportunities for your organization. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. The. Thing that we are going to talk a bit about in more depth is about co creating a coaching culture, is something that you are clearly part of because that's part of the work that you are doing is something that's really close to my heart, having also been involved with it. So it would be great if we could start that by, hearing a bit about what your understanding of a coaching culture is. When you think about it, what does it mean to you?

Lipika: 9:17

The first thing I think about is a recent conversation that I overheard. So I was in the office and we have a beautiful reception area with a wonderful barista and a view of the ocean and Marina bay sand. And when I'm in the office, I love to go have. My cappuccino and have a mindful moment. And so that's what I was doing and I happened to overhear a manager and you know, their direct report, having a conversation. It was a very operational conversation. There was lots of talk of pacing and pipeline and deals, but there were also questions like, what makes us hard for you? What have you tried? Why is this important to you? What's the biggest challenge you have at the moment? If you could do anything, what would you try? What will you do next? And I thought this is coaching culture.

Jean: 10:17

That is, it's the ultimate example of a coaching culture, isn't it? In that moment that the leader is moving to that space.

Lipika: 10:25

Absolutely. And so, you know, just like you said, for me, that describes a coaching culture when. Coaching becomes a way that we engage with each other every day. And when I say each other, that means with each other, with our cross-functional partners and with our customers. And so for me, that's what I would understand as a coaching culture. Now, there are some parts in there if we break it down a bit. And for me, one of them is that it is across all levels. So we've really moved away from this idea that coaching is just for managers and just for leaders. And so at LinkedIn, like we're super passionate about. Developing the skill of coaching at all levels of the organization. And so we have a peer coaching program that gives select individual contributors the opportunity to develop their coaching skills, to have that bottoms up approach. And so for me, coaching culture first off means all levels. It's not an elite skill. the second thing for me would be that leaders at the top are modeling this behavior. I was recently in, a workshop, a communications workshop. We were learning to. Use insights as part of our communication. And I happened to be paired with, the head of operations for one of our business lines. And I thought, this is brilliant. He's gonna gimme all of us advice on my presentation that I'm preparing. We had to bring in some pre-work, and I was all ready to make notes and learn from him. And, he started asking me questions and he started reflecting back to me some of the things I was saying. And I thought, wait a moment. You're coaching me. You're coaching me, aren't you? And so, you know, it's when leaders are modeling that without giving it the big coaching label, that's what, you know, leaders cast such a long shadow and it's moments like that have such an impact. and it's so, you know, it's so important. Leaders are doing that. And the final one would be, To have that system in place, to have resources, to build skills and to give people the tools to be coaches. And so for me, those would be the three elements that a coaching culture should have.

Jean: 12:53

Yeah. it's so important in what you are describing is that it's kind of, it's like any cultural thing that it's baked into the behaviors of people in the organization that's where it is. And one of the things I'm really kind of heartened to hear you talk about is that it's not just baked into leadership behavior because I think there's so many opportunities for us to have coaching conversations with our peers with. You know, or even just to go to somebody and say, I'm stuck on something. can you just coach me through it a bit so that I can get unstuck? and to be able to create an environment where people have the skills in order to be able to help each other outside of the leadership conversations is critical. And I think I hear you saying that that's what you are doing, that you are also helping people who are outside of leadership also have those skills so that they can do that.

Lipika: 13:48

I think it's a way of scaling coaching as well. Cause just working in a very fast paced environment in a very fast paced industry. There isn't always the space or it doesn't feel like there is the space to have dedicated coaching conversations. And so what we are trying to do is to break that down into, a bite sized piece and just identify and capture those coaching moments. And so that is freeing up people to say, I don't have to put in all these hours in my diary to formally coach. I can turn again, like the conversation I was eavesdropping on, forgive me, whoever that was, you know, to identify those coaching moments. And then to use the coach approach. So this idea of flexing between coaching, teaching, mentoring, and this idea of flexing between deal coaching and coaching to skill development. We're opening up what coaching means, you know, to our sales organization because we think that is how we will create this culture of coaching by integrating it into people's workflow.

Jean: 15:07

Yeah, that's really powerful. Really powerful. We've already talked a little bit about this, but I'm curious about the connection between, so we are in difficult macro environment at the moment and there's, you've talked about fear and I. Hear a lot about that. In fact, did a podcast on it a couple of weeks ago because I know there's a lot of fear around in the system, and I'm curious about how you see coaching or a coaching approach or those coaching moments helping in an environment where actually the market conditions for all of us are pretty tough off.

Lipika: 15:44

that's a really, really good question and it's a fair question for people to ask. Is coaching relevant? In this macro environment. In fact, we recently had a leader kick off, a workshop with that question because that's the elephant in the room. And my thoughts on that are twofold. And one is the big thing that managers, at least in our sales organization are worried about is performance and meeting results. And we know that these metrics go back a really, really long time. That effective coaching leads to improved performance. You know, the slide we always put up in our workshop is the Gartner statistic of, effective coaching improves performance by 19%. And I think. It has got lost. I think this relation to coaching and performance has got lost. It, has begun, or it has got this image of being a very fluffy thing and it's not. And so I think something that we like to bring people back to is, you know, performance and results is a big thing that we all worried about. effective coaching can help with that. Just to go a bit deeper into that workshops and big trainings are important because having that baseline of knowledge is of course, you know, the starting point. but at the same time, it doesn't give that individual kind of support that people need in order to improve their performance. And so this, I think the beauty of coaching that it's very, very tailored to the specific person. So I think performance, you know, is a really big one. And I think the second one, at least in our industry, in our organization, is there is a lot of change. Because innovation is really important to our company. And where you have innovation, you need to be very agile and there's a lot, of change. And we all know that managing change is quite difficult. And so coaching, again, can be so, so helpful to help individuals to manage change because each person is. At a different point in that change curve. So I think performance and being resilient to change, I feel like those are the two really big ones that, we talk about.

Jean: 18:12

In preparation for our conversation today, I too went back to look at the research to see what it was saying, and I came across another study very similar to the Gartner one by the sounds also saying this, link between coaching and a coaching culture and improved performance. and it's a bit of a challenge at the moment, I think, because I think that, like you were describing, coaching can be seen as fluffy. It's very hard to correlate investment in developing coaches as leaders and performance of the organization because there's so many factors involved in that. And I wonder, how you see this question of how do we measure the impact of it? Because we can see the external research saying this and we see, we hear from those conversations that you overheard the impact of it. In that conversation, we can imagine how do we measure that and make the point that this is worth continuing to invest in in difficult situations.

Lipika: 19:13

Jean, I'm really looking. To you to learn more about on this topic because this is a really, really big question that we are working on that we haven't solved for. So my disclaimer is I don't have the answer. I'm not an expert and I'm looking for help. That being said, my thoughts on this. Is answering that question with another question, which is, should we be measuring the impact of coaching? Curious what your thoughts are on that.

Jean: 19:45

Yeah, well, I, to hold the question actually, I mean, well first of all, we should at least be having a go at measuring the impact of coaching, but people who've worked in the measurement of learning for nearly a hundred years, this fields of study, and this will tell us that it's really, really hard because there's so many factors influencing the. Outcome of whatever's going on in that space. And so, I think for me, I feel like this doesn't answer the question that people have. Yeah, but I want numbers. I don't want you to feel, I want numbers. I want you to tell me how is this making, how do we measure this? And all I know is that when I talk to people who are in organizations where there's more of a coaching culture or it's more relational, they do see some measures. They see employee engagement go up, they see. Retention go up and the important things happen, but we also hear people talking about, I enjoy going to work. I had a great conversation with my manager. I had a problem. People were prepared to stop and help me solve my problem. You know, we hear loads of anecdotal things, which I think we have to believe, add up to it being worth the investment. and if we're going to measure it, we need to be in a very long game and we need to, have academic rigor to it and really looking at, Whether we're measuring the right thing. So I guess what I'm saying is I think unless we're doing a really big longitudinal study to see what the impact is, there is an element of faith and trust that this is the right thing to do and that therefore it's important.

Lipika: 21:29

Those are exactly the words that we're spinning about in my head, which is it requires us to trust the process. I know that's something that you said a lot in our workshop and something I repeat a lot now in my workshop, which is, you know, trust the process. I get the need to measure the impact of coaching, and I've been in business for almost two decades now, and I understand how it works to get resources for initiatives, and that requires putting a business case together and you know, having metrics to support that. and businesses need to justify the resources that they're spending, and particularly in times like this. Where there's a resource constrainted and companies are being very intentional about where they make their investments. It's important to be able to show the impact of, the dream that we're trying to achieve. So I absolutely get that. I'm not sure that I have found a way of doing it that sits right with me. I think you can measure the volume of coaching activity and you know, we do, we do have a tool to help us with that so we can measure how much coaching activity is happening. I think to measure quality is a bit more difficult because I think if you ask someone to measure. The quality or the impact of the coaching conversation right after the coaching conversation. It's more a reaction to how do I feel about it? So it's a reaction metric rather than an impact metric, because sometimes Like for me, sometimes it has been a year or two years after I've had a coaching conversation where I've then been able to really, you know, identify the impact of it. So I think impact is a really difficult one. and it's a work in progress, so I really hope that we can get to a point where we do it in a way that is, is holistic.

Jean: 23:34

I think that's a beautiful word to describe it because I think if we're going to measure it well and meaningfully, it's important that it is holistic, that it brings in the whole story, the whole story about what matters to people at work.

Lipika: 23:48

I'm just thinking of, I believe it's an Albert Einstein quote. You know, not everything that matters can be. Measured, how do we measure relationships? How do we measure empathy? How do we measure trust? Those are very difficult things to measure, and I feel like coaching belongs to that group of, heartfelt subjects.

Jean: 24:13

I agree. And it shouldn't stop us from keeping looking at how we can measure quality impacts and not seeing it as a simple overnight activity. I

Lipika: 24:23

That's a good challenge.

Jean: 24:25

There's an interesting link that I've been playing with for quite a long time about the correlational, the connection between coaching and belonging and inclusion. And there's a lot of, pretty good robust studies showing that when organizations are more inclusive, they are more, effective. They're often financially more resilient and. In my heart believe that if there's a coaching culture, we are much more likely to be inclusive. Because, empathy leads to more inclusion and belonging. Being curious about people overcomes bias because we get to know each other, we build relationships with each other, and so I do think that there's probably some connection that we can make between. The, massive research about inclusion and belonging and the impact on the bottom line for organizations and coaching, but I don't think anybody's made that connection. I don't think that research has been done.

Lipika: 25:22

That would be fantastic because that is so important to so many of us today, and particularly on LinkedIn where, where I work and without having all the data, my feel is that being using a coaching approach would contribute to having a more inclusive culture. I'm just thinking of the coach mindset of non-judgment. It starts there, doesn't it? And so if you're going to a coaching conversation, you're preparing your mindset to come from a place of non-judgment that already is a great starting point to being, you know, more inclusive. So I love that.

Jean: 26:08

Yeah, I think we can have more conversations about that. I think it's a, a lovely place to go. We're obviously in the space of loving coaching and being committed to it, but not everybody is. So I'm really curious about barriers or resistance to coaching that you see or a coaching approach.

Lipika: 26:32

I think the biggest barrier is. Us asking people in organizations to straddle the short term and the long term. So like many companies, managers are measured on quarterly results, and that involves making sure that deals are being closed. That. Involves operational excellence and rigor. So there is that short term agenda that is real and that is important because even the most conscious of businesses can only stay in existence if, they're making a profit or at minimum. At break even. So that's very important. And it's very real. And at the same time, there is a long-term, a long-term ask we have of people, which is to develop their talent, to invest in learning and growth, to coach people, to contribute to having. A better culture. So it's straddling. These two things, short term and long term, and asking people to do it at the same time's, a difficult thing to do.

Jean: 27:45

It is. Because that pressure often forces us into needing to do things in a hurry, not pausing and thinking, and yet that doesn't support coaching all the long term approach.

Lipika: 28:00

Yeah. That being said, it can be done and it is done and it's done so well. I feel fortunate to be one of the certifiers in our organization and also To deliver a lot of our workshops and most of our workshops are very experiential, so we get to observe managers coaching and it can a hundred percent be done. We always thought that, you know, deal coaching and coaching to the person, were mutually exclusive and that does not need to be the case. It doesn't need to be the case. I have seen managers do you know, an excellent job of. Coaching to the deal while coaching to the person. And that could look like saying, how will this help you, moving forward? What makes this important, to you? And there is a way of doing it and not saying it's easy. You know, some of our top performing managers, who. Really drive operational rigor and excellence are some of our best coaches that have the closest relationships with their team and, that spend time coaching so it can be done. There is just a sense that there are, two different things and so I think that's what makes it challenging. Just tying those two things together and being able to tell that story is not easy.

Jean: 29:30

It's a mindset shift. Actually. I think what you're describing is that, are we, in a way it's about moving our mindsets into seeing that the two. Are connected and not separate. And you know, in coaching, particularly in our level two program, we are teaching that approach, that coaching the person around the challenge that they're bringing is what's really going to make the difference. Because if I can work out what's getting me and what's, getting in the way of me relating to a client, for example, or of me having the courage to push for a better deal, then I'll not only learn about myself, but I'll also be better at doing that with other clients and I'll bring much longer impact to the organization by making that connection between me and the work I'm doing or me and the deal

Lipika: 30:23

Yes, that's exactly right. it's going. Down so many levels, right? To the person. You know, the question we like to ask is, are you coaching the problem? Are you coaching the person?

Jean: 30:34

Exactly. Yeah. This is, sounds like a really exciting journey, and I imagine quite a few people listening will be feeling a little envious of your role. I'm curious about what you've learned. along the way about either about how to create a coaching culture or actually even about yourself as well, in this journey of doing this work.

Lipika: 30:58

The big lesson that I have learned is to slow down. When we started this team and we had this beautiful vision of creating a culture of coaching, making coaching be the way that we engage with each other, with our customers, with all of us loving coaching, we were in a hurry to change everybody right away. And I learned a lot from how. Our business partners choose to, partner with us, which is that they chose not to make this an operating priority. They chose to have this evolve organically. And I'll give you a bit more context as those things may not mean, a lot to a lot of people. So, When we say operating priority, it's the business and business leaders saying, these are the few things that are very important to us. They're so important that we require you to do these things. And there are very few things that get on that list. And I was disappointed at first that coaching didn't, get on that list. And I have since learned that the approach that, you know, business leaders chose, which is to allow coaching, to evolve organically was the better way and was the right way. And what I mean by that is we started small and we saw. Leaders really, you know, get a lot from this, talk about it with their peers, make the effort to be certified, and for it to grow organically. And this has been, and it feels right, it feels the right approach for coaching. Now, if it's a big product launch or something like that, the more top down approach. Feels okay, but with coaching this, even though I didn't feel like it at first, this was a better way and this is the lesson that I learned and one that I will take of

Jean: 33:05

That's lovely. It's this idea of creating small fires almost, of people who are in love with coaching see the benefit of it and the value of it, and the culture happens from those individuals rather than it being driven from the top. It happens through the behaviors, through the experience that people have, through the conversations that they're having, rather than being told.

Lipika: 33:30

Yeah.

Jean: 33:31

That's powerful and I'm sure has a very big impact.

Lipika: 33:36

It does. And it's lovely to see people sharing stories and to hear people's success. And we like to have choice as humans, don't we? We like to have autonomy. We like to have agency and being able to choose. And coaching is one of those things that, you have to want to become a coach in order to learn the skills and apply the mindset so,

Jean: 34:02

You do. It's a very personal journey, I think, going on that journey. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing so openly about, The coaching culture. And I know, you know, it's a conversational topic that I keep exploring because I think we can learn from each other so much about how to do this in organizations. Let's take a bit of a move sideways as we begin to draw to close. And I wonder if you would mind, looking back on your career and sharing maybe a critical career moment or a moment where you've had change and what you learned from that.

Lipika: 34:40

For me, what I go back to is, A performance review conversation. So I've been working for about 10 years with 10 years worth of very good performance reviews. And then there came the day where that wasn't the case anymore, and I was shocked just growing up to work hard, do the best that I can. I just assume that, I was always going to perform well. And so it was a bit of a shock for me to have this experience where a performance review wasn't good. I had just switched. It was my first leadership role, and it taught me two really important things and two things that are connected to each other. And the first one was this idea of. Asking for feedback along the way, and the lesson that I took from that performance review is it was such a shock to me to get all this information from different stakeholders that I had been supporting. And so I changed my relationship to feedback, and there was a switch in mindset. Ego to humility in that process. And so what I did next was to have individual conversations with each one of my stakeholders and I said, I want to do better. What is one thing I can do better? And so it has just become part of my process now that when I do a piece of work, I do a project. I don't wait for people to tell me. I don't wait for my performance review. It's just part of how I work now that I'm constantly looking for feedback and I'm constantly looking for ways of doing better and serving better. So that was a big turning point for me and a lovely one because I really had to do a lot of work and I'm still doing the work to. Put the ego aside and really to focus more on the work.

Jean: 36:47

Thank you for sharing that because it's actually, I think for all of us, a great insight, both the piece about feedback and that we can feel. That it's a bit frightening because it feels like it's a push against how we go ourself and who we are, but also there's a really practical piece of advice there. You know, go and get feedback. Find out how you're doing. It doesn't have to be a 30 minute conversation, even like you are describing. It can just be one question. You know, what could I do to improve? Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you. And it's coming to the end of our conversation now, and I wonder is there a book or a podcast or a TED Talk or something that you would particularly recommend?

Lipika: 37:34

Well, of course I love this podcast, Jean. I do a lot of career coaching. I'm also a business mentor with a wonderful program called Protege and. You know, I love the topics that you talk about. They're so relevant to what my coaching clients and what my mentees are going through. So I love your podcast. in addition to that, a book that I've been reading that. I really, really love is called burnout. The secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily and Amelia Nagoski two sisters. And what I love about it is it explores the experience of stress through a female perspective, which is quite different. And it also helped me understand the science behind stress and the reason that we find ourself in burnout, which is that we don't end the stress cycle. And I just love how this book is written about a very serious matter in a playful and in a light way. I think that's an odd that, that I really, really appreciate. So,

Jean: 38:45

brilliant. Thank you. I'm gonna go and find that book. I think it sounds like a really practical, helpful book for all of us. Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm going away inspired. I feel it's so wonderful to hear a live story of creating a coaching culture and how you are doing that and how you are approaching it so thoughtfully, and I am keen to keep following the story of how this evolves and the impact that's seen. Within LinkedIn. And LinkedIn of course has a very big impact on all of our lives, so on our lives more broadly. So thank you so much for doing that, for being here and for sharing the work you are doing.

Lipika: 39:34

Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, Jean. It has been a wonderful conversation, like every conversation with you. Thank you so much.