Jean: 0:07

Hi everyone, and welcome to Making Sense of Work Today. I'm thrilled to be joined by Vanessa Teo. Welcome to the podcast Vanessa

Vanessa: 0:16

Hi Jean.

Jean: 0:17

Hi, I'm so looking forward to our conversation.

Vanessa: 0:20

Me too.

Jean: 0:22

Just to share a little bit about Vanessa. She is a director at AbbVie and currently leads strategy planning for the medical aesthetics function. She is a strategic business focused HR leader with over 20 years experience, and we're going to talk about this move from HR to strategy as part of what we talk about today. In her career, she's been passionate and is passionate about helping organizations to make human capital a competitive advantage through developing people to their highest potential. Since joining AbbVie in 2019, she's held various roles in hr, including director, talent management, Intercontinental and HR director for Singapore for parts of the business. Prior to AbbVie, Vanessa worked at the L V M H group for D F S in multiple HR leadership roles, including vice president talent and learning. And HR Director for Singapore and Corporate hq. She started her career at Targets Corporation where she held a wide range of leadership roles, including organizational effectiveness, director International, and HR Director China. Vanessa holds an executive masters in change in organization Psychology from Insead and a Bachelor's in business administration from Indiana University Bloomington. And so lovely to have you here, Vanessa, um,

Vanessa: 1:51

It's lovely to be here, Jean.

Jean: 1:54

And we are gonna talk about many of this aspects of your career today. How's work at the moment?

Vanessa: 2:01

Well, work is going very well. Work is very busy. I've been doing quite a bit of travel for business since the beginning of this year with the opening of borders. Been traveling quite a bit to the markets. As you well mentioned, I've also just recently moved into a brand new role at AbbVie, and so learning the ropes of the business, learning a lot about my new role and traveling out to the markets to really understand what's happening out in the different locations has really been top of mind for me.

Jean: 2:31

Oh, it sounds really interesting and I'm looking forward to hearing more about that. When you have a really good day at work, what does that look like for you?

Vanessa: 2:42

so. When I'm having a really great day at work, it always starts first with a great workout. I enjoy strength training at the gym. I enjoy having a good run or, being at the yoga studio and having a, a meditative yoga session. So it always starts with something physically engaging. A great day at work for me is oftentimes when I've had a really stimulating conversation either with an employee, about an employee matter, about development, about career. A great day is when I get to help an employee to, to make a difference in their life and their career. A great day is also about being able to make a difference in the business that I work in. Being able to do something innovative, be engaged in a conversation where I'm actively contributing to new thinking or where I'm challenging the status quo. I love that about work and I always love learning and doing something different with my day.

Jean: 3:46

Mm. That's interesting because that's so connected to our topic for today, so I look forward to hearing about that. Before we dive into that, could you tell us a bit about your career journey? How, how did you get to be here doing what you're doing now?

Vanessa: 4:02

Sure. Well, I started my career actually working in the us. I. Previously worked for a US-based retailer target. they are a discount retailer all over the us. I started actually working in the commercial team. I was a merchandiser with the US headquarters team and I actually started my career working in. Very, very cold, Minnesota. I expressed very early on in my career the desire from international career and being very good, um, being a really great employer and listener. My manager at that time was very supportive of helping me to explore roles that were outside of the us and an opportunity. Initially opened in the Singapore office. I took on a commercial role also in the Singapore office. But then as with many things in life, interesting adventures then presented themselves. my career took an interesting turn when I took on an opportunity in China. I initially was in our China team as a merchandise trainer, so also in the commercial team, where I led training for merchandising systems and processes in China. and then it took an interesting turn when I got a call one day from the global head of HR asking if I would consider leading the HR team in China. And that was probably one of my pivotal moments in career where I was presented with a very, very different and unexpected challenge. Um, I had very little experience in hr. I didn't know much about the technical aspects of the function. Um, Least of all employment legislations in China. What does it mean to hire and fire someone and what does it mean to develop someone's career? You know, all of these things that were very new for me, but in fact, that was the pivotal moment and when I made that decision to go into hr back then, that was around 2006. Um, I never looked back. And for the next, you know, majority of my career since then, I've actually spent it in hr and I've since then done quite a number of moves within the HR function, whether it's in talent management, in talent acquisition, in business, partnering in hr. So done many different, roles within hr. I then after a number of years moved on, still within the consumer industry, I moved on to the Louis Vuitton MO at Hennessy Group. As part of the travel retail business in D F s, I joined as HR director in Singapore and then took on, uh, with increasing responsibilities, a global talent role. and then after almost 20 years in the consumer industry, I decided that it was time to test myself beyond that industry and to, take my skills and learn within a different industry. So four years ago I joined AbbVie. AbbVie a Biopharma company. Based in the us I took on a talent leadership role within the organization. And then from there on, over the last four years, have taken on, uh, several different HR related roles until very recently, and this is almost three months ago, where I took on a very, very different role with AbbVie. I've now moved over to the commercial. Team within the medical aesthetics business unit and I now lead strategy planning for the commercial team. So very, very different, uh, and varied experience.

Jean: 7:28

I'm loving that full circle. You started in commercial, 20 years in hr, and now you are back on the commercial side of the business, so there's something curious there about that journey.

Vanessa: 7:40

yeah. Indeed, indeed. You're right that it has come full circle. And when I think about career, I guess I think of it less as functional areas that I've been in, but really the different skills that I've picked up along the way. and when you think about hr, HR is about driving business at the end of the day through people. So, It is so crucial. I think that as HR leaders, the, the intimate understanding of business is so, so crucial and the experience I now have, even though it's only for the last three months, but just the visibility and insights into the business that I've had to double down on is, is really quite enriching.

Jean: 8:26

I'm sure. Can we just track back a little bit then, and I'd love to hear from you, you know, what was your thinking about making this move from HR to commercial to strategy planning?

Vanessa: 8:41

When I was thinking about where my career was heading, I always think about career as. A long marathon. And when it comes to decisions along the way of how you want to run this marathon, I've got to constantly ask myself, what am I doing to put into my overall toolkit to help me run that distance? You know? So rather than thinking of myself as an HR leader, I think of myself simply as a leader. And I am curious about many different aspects of work. and of business. So there are a number of things that always make me very curious as a leader. Um, I'm curious about business. I'm very curious about how business makes money. You know, what really makes our business tick? What differentiates our business? What helps drive our bottom line, our top line? And how do we as a leader, drive the future of the business and this journey of evolution? I'm also very curious about human behavior and thus my time in hr. but I'm very curious as to how people succeed in business. What are the different skills, competencies, behaviors that people need to really drive and ultimately deliver? And exceed on delivering the performance of the business. Um, so those things are constantly on my mind as I'm thinking about career, when I'm thinking about how do I explore and what do I need to put into my toolkit to help me be a more holistic and well-rounded leader. And then I always ask myself, This question about what am I doing differently to stretch myself? when I was considering the opportunity to move to a different function, I asked myself, having been in HR for so many years, what do I need now to continue to challenge myself in the next 10, 15, 20 years? And how far and how wide can I stretch myself, you know? And so really challenging myself to think beyond the traditional path of my functional expertise was really something top of my mind. So when the opportunity was presented, I was very curious about it. I reached out. I wanted to learn more about it. I asked people around what would it be like? and then to realize that, you know, at this stage in career and actually at any point in career, the question is, is there really that big of a risk? and to me, the risk of not learning something new and not challenging myself beyond was far greater than the risk that I would take with an opportunity like this.

Jean: 11:28

That's amazing because it's that sense of personal growth expansion that is sitting underneath your decision, that ability to keep that stretch happening.

Vanessa: 11:40

Yeah. and it's not easy. I felt very uncomfortable on some days

Jean: 11:46

I was just gonna ask you that actually. So how, you know, say a bit more about that. How is it, cuz you've come right out of your comfort zone into a new area.

Vanessa: 11:56

Yeah, indeed. Dealing with the discomfort of A, not being the expert in the room. B, not being the person that they're looking for, for necessarily that functional expertise, especially at the start, can be quite a challenge. I mean, for many years and majority of my career, I've been honing my skill in HR and to step away from that to learn something very new, I've got to ask myself a few questions first. What are some of those transferable skills that transcend different functions that I'm able to bring to the table and that the organization can still see as valuable? So skills around communication, collaboration, having a very good understanding of how networks work and how do you get people on board? How do you influence, these are skills that transcend. All different kinds of functions, and my challenge is to learn that the technical aspect of the business as quickly as I can, but to not forget that I do have levers to pull, given that I have learned these other skills throughout my career.

Jean: 13:11

Yeah, so there's a, there's often people will say to me about that question of taking a big career shift or a step sideways is about that. Well, what have I got to offer over there? And forgetting all of the relational skills that we have, and also I imagine the intellectual rigor of learning your hr. World, you know, learning all that you had to do in that world, it teaches you to bring that intellectual rigor into this new world. You know, it's also transferable.

Vanessa: 13:44

It is, it is. You do take a lot of the skills and networks and the rigor of learning, that intellectual rigor that you just mentioned, you do take that into almost every role that you go into, um, whether it is within hr, whether it's in a different function. Having the mental agility, I think, and the patience also to learn something brand new I think is, is crucial. I've spent extra time. Reading through documents that would have otherwise taken a normal commercial person, maybe a much shorter time, but at least in the last three months when I've gone through those documents to furnish myself with that information, I've had to take a double take on number of different things and ask more questions and be courageous in. In asking those questions and in many ways too, doing my own research to, you know, my own homework, to ensure that I'm picking up the knowledge as quickly as I can.

Jean: 14:47

I'm loving this idea of courage because it, taking the step involves courage, but then there's also that sense of having the courage to show up, ask the questions, to know that you're not gonna know all the time because you are new. That accepting that people will accept you in that it does. All of it require courage.

Vanessa: 15:09

It does, it does. It takes quite a bit of courage, but I always remind myself of the decision I I made when I said, I'm gonna try something different. I've essentially put myself out there to go on an adventure, you know, and when you go on that adventure, you don't always know what is gonna happen next. But the one thing that I know is that I'm on an adventure to discover something new about myself. I am being courageous and learning at. Different things about the business of myself, of the people around me. And just that stretch that I'm getting is far better than having still stayed and done the same, the same thing. So I am, I'm always reminding myself that I'm doing something different every day.

Jean: 16:03

Yeah. It's been one of the things that I've encouraged people to do over the years, for many, many years when they've come and said, I want to, move into more senior leadership, or I want to progress. I've often encourage people to do what you are doing. So it's great to hear the kind of live story of that, that it's possible and that it does require this courage. It does require that ability to take a risk because you don't know what the journey is after this.

Vanessa: 16:32

Yeah. Well, and it takes courage on both sides. It takes courage from my end, but it also takes a great deal of courage from an organization's perspective To recognize the development that. An individual like myself can potentially gain from this to also recognize that the ramp up time will take a little bit of time, but to have the courage to take on someone who would be coming to the role with More to learn. At the start, at least, it takes a great deal of courage as an organization too. So I think it, it takes both hands to clip, it takes, you know, a curious mind on the part of the employee, but it also takes An ecosystem of support from an organization's perspective to be able to help an individual who's making a cross-functional move to be successful, we've got to recognize how to surround the person with support. We've got to also, at least at the start, Offer guidance on where to find the information as quickly as you can and be willing to spend time to help the individual through this is crucial and, you know, people will figure it out at some point. So it is important that we help to at least chart that path so that individuals who make moves like that can still be successful.

Jean: 17:54

As you were talking, I was thinking about what we do for graduate trainees when they come into the business, and how we chart a path through different parts of the business until they see where they want to settle, where they enjoy it, and we've been terrible at. As people become more senior and giving those opportunities there, and because what you're describing is, is about creating those pathways, preparing people, not just the individual but the business so that they're there to support that. Uh, because it can only be good for business, for people to understand different areas outside of their functional area.

Vanessa: 18:30

Absolutely. I think that there are so many ways that organizations can help challenge individuals. To continuously stretch their minds because it's not just good for the individual, but it's good for the business. It's good when you're able to bring individuals into your business who can think differently, who approach problems from a different point of view. Um, it's great for business and in my HR capacity, I always encourage leaders to help. When your employee is looking for a different kind of an experience, help to discover what that experience could be. Is it a cross-functional move? Is it an international relocation? Is it taking on a short-term assignment? Is it. Being on a special project. All of these are experiences that take people out from their everyday job and challenge them to think differently. It challenges them to prioritize their time differently. It encourages them to learn beyond what they're comfortable with. And I think at the end of the day, good for the individual and it's great for the business.

Jean: 19:39

I agree. So for people who are listening and thinking, wow, I'd love to do that. Um, but I'm a bit nervous cuz it's a big shift. What would you say to them in helping them think about preparing for it or even positioning it within their organization?

Vanessa: 19:57

Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I think first and foremost, You've always got to start by first doing great work in whatever role that you're in. It starts with having great performance and letting your organization see that given where you're at today, you're already able to deliver on a great level of performance and you bring great quality work to the table. So starting with that first, then for cross-functional moves, moves. Like from HR into commercial, for example. It's always easier to do it first within the same organization, but you've got to also understand, What other functions are doing. So speaking openly with people, speaking openly, with internal and external people within that function that you might be interested in, just to understand what it will take, what helps them to be successful in that function, what are some skills that crucially is. Important in order to be successful. And then from there you gotta do your own self-evaluation. What are those skills that I need and I currently lacking today that I might need to build? And that, is about filling that toolkit. Right. What are those skills that you'll need to put in that toolkit in order for you to be able to be successful? I would say also, Networks are crucially important, and I find that to be extremely important, especially when you're thinking about moves within the organization, um, even moves outside of the organization. but individuals who you surround yourself with, I oftentimes refer to them as your personal board of directors.

Jean: 21:38

Yeah.

Vanessa: 21:39

Your board of directors are the ones who can potentially help to navigate through, you know, some of these challenging, Decisions that you might need to make, but board of directors are also a group of people who can help you to think through possibilities. I've often turned to, whether it's mentors or coaches who you know, had the ability to spend quite a bit of time with, to help me to understand what I might be great at and where I could. You know, really brush up on some of my skills and the mentors that I've had have been such great mirrors to me and even pointing out where I could do better at certain things or where I needed a different experience to really challenge myself. These are individuals who are really great at. Helping you to see what you may not see yourself. I've also kept in touch with many of my former bosses before because these are people who know me intimately in terms of work. And I remember when I was considering moving to the commercial function where I was deciding do I stay in HR or do I, really challenge myself? And I turned to a former boss who said, what's holding you back? Why? Why aren't you jumping at this opportunity? And I realized that in speaking with my board of directors or this former boss of mine, was that he saw a part of me that I failed to see. I didn't give myself enough of that courage and confidence that, that he could see. So your board of directors will serve you in so many different ways, but I really think that if you're considering moves, whether It's a move to take on a short-term assignment, to do a cross-functional move, or an international move, your board of directors can help you tremendously in being able to think through some of these decisions really clearly. So,

Jean: 23:25

Yeah, there's a couple of things I want to pick up from this one is, Your board of directors is multiple and not just one. So there's some interesting research, particularly about women, that women are likely to have a smaller number of people in their board of directors. And so we as women need to make sure that we've got enough people, a wide group of sponsors who are going to be there supporting us in that. In that capacity in helping us for the other thing that I'm hearing from what you're saying, is really about a lot of personal responsibility that this is about you, me, whoever's wanting to make this move, taking full responsibility for navigating it, for understanding who to talk to for thinking about what I might need to change and shift and grow in order to do this. Successfully in order for it to be a success, and that involves a bit of soul searching and

Vanessa: 24:21

It does,

Jean: 24:22

myself.

Vanessa: 24:23

it does. You know, you bring up a really great point for people who are thinking about making moves like this. One crucial point is to also do some soul searching and to really understand yourself. What is your ultimate goal? Why are you doing this? I think it's so important to understand why are you making this move? Because when you understand your why and you understand your longer term goal, you can then, Put in place a plan to say, what will I want to gain from this particular experience? What are the skills you want to make sure that you're picking up? And, and it will help you as you plan for what's next and even two steps beyond where you're at to think how will the experience of today contribute to my goals of tomorrow?

Jean: 25:12

Yes. I have a good friend who's really good at that. She's always two jobs ahead of her current job and working out, because then also we are able to make a few compromises if we see this as part of the long game. We're able to see what's happening now in the context of the future.

Vanessa: 25:29

Absolutely. Yes, and you bring up a good point about the long game. In that journey of this marathon and this long game, there will be potentially, I mean, there will be sacrifices that you'll need to make along the way. There will be gains that you'll make along the way. So understanding also where you're at in your life. Because life is gonna play such a crucial role in career as well, to understand when are those days where a relocation is possible, but also being very clear on when it potentially may not be. When do you need to spend more time focused on the family, because you may have aging parents at home, or you very young children, and just being very real with yourself about that and understanding that it is okay. Under those circumstances to not raise your hand for that next relocation around the world. It is all right and being open and honest about that both with yourself and the organization, can help both sides be able to plan much, much better.

Jean: 26:31

That's a great point. Yeah. To take us on a little bit from this. You've worked in a lot of different locations, so you've also made other changes in your career, and I'd love to hear a bit about your learning from this moving location

Vanessa: 26:49

Yeah, Yeah, I think. I'm a little bit of an adventure junkie.

Jean: 26:56

I can hear that.

Vanessa: 27:00

So over the course of my career, I've lived in several different countries. I've been in the us, I've lived in China and Indonesia in Singapore, and just traveled quite a bit as part of my roles, my different roles that I've had. at the heart of it, what made me do all of these crazy moves, I have a very deep sense of curiosity and a sense of adventure when it comes to learning new things and new culture and new ways of thinking. So, At a young age, always been very curious with how people in different cultures think and act and how decisions are made. And as I've grown within different organizations, I also recognize how organizational culture and in one country can sometimes be interpreted differently with different levels of nuances in different countries. So this sense of curiosity has made me very open to learning these new experiences and made me very open to taking on new roles. I've, in each one of these countries that I lived in, always challenged myself to be patient, to be open to listening first before. I make a judgment. I've also been challenged oftentimes to really observe the environment that I'm in. What's acceptable, what's socially acceptable, what's socially less acceptable, but more importantly, how do I make the very, very best of every country that I've been in to ultimately help in. Bigger decision making. You know, the number of considerations that I have to make, I, I'm always, um, fascinated by how in different countries around the world, the challenges of relocation can sometimes really test how adaptable you can be. It helps you both in your personal life as well as in your professional life.

Jean: 28:50

Because there's so much power in empathy and curiosity as you talk about, and that understanding of where people are coming from in their own culture and their own expression of an organization within that culture, and it's in our empathy. I think that we begin to understand how we can help people be their best.

Vanessa: 29:14

Yeah.

Jean: 29:15

In their own way.

Vanessa: 29:17

Yeah, I think cultural sensitivity is so crucial when you are able to appreciate how someone of a different culture is thinking and acting. I think you also inevitably develop a, better sense of self., you're more aware of yourself because instead of speaking immediately, I often find that I may, you know, having lived in different countries, I have to first observe what the other person is saying first before I jump into a conclusion. And recognize that the way that someone else in a different culture, in a different part of the world is acting is oftentimes a result of that country's culture. And, it's so important to be respectful of that and recognize how we navigate, around it in order to integrate the different types of communication with the different culture.

Jean: 30:14

In my experience, this can be really challenging in multinational organizations because there's an idea that this is how we do it at x and that we want it done like this. In every country, and I, I'm wondering if you've ever been able to navigate some of that challenge, that kind of organizational culture versus country culture versus local culture even.

Vanessa: 30:44

Yeah. Yes. The short answer to that is yes, having worked for three large organizations throughout my career and, each one being so different, so much of what is defined as culture within the organization. Oftentimes may have a different level of interpretation as you get out into the different countries around the world. I think that there needs to be a very good balance between global and local, and we need to make sure that we're also being very sensitive to what might work in a local culture and what doesn't. There are many times when, um, the global teams, may be divising materials and churning out materials, for local, countries to use. And I think it is so important that as multinationals, that we are before releasing any of those to local countries that we're also. Having, thought partners from those countries to help to validate, to see if that will land locally. And the biggest risk is that when it doesn't land, it doesn't matter how well done it was at headquarters. If it doesn't land, then it's a wasted effort. So making sure, yeah, making sure that we are all inclusive in designing the materials, designing the language around it, having local champions to help us to deliver the message in an effective way is so crucial. Um, and that's where I think as global or organizations extra effort sometimes to go slower. Because you want to ensure that you're doing your communications in a way that is all inclusive. It might take a longer time, but it's worth it. It's worth it when you're getting the opinions of the local leaders, when you're looking at ways to communicate the message in a way that employees all around the world can. Easily understand and adapt and implement is really so important. And I think the cultural sensitivity to the way that different countries may react to different messages is crucial.

Jean: 32:57

Couldn't agree more. I've seen it done badly a number of times. I've seen it done really well a number of times, but when it's done badly, the psychological contract is often broken and that sense of trust is lost. Yeah.

Vanessa: 33:12

yes. That's a really great book, um, culture Map by Aaron Myers. Um, that I think Was really one of my best reads, uh, when it comes to cultural sensitivity and navigating in the, in, in the global context. Um, and that book really inspired me because it was the understanding that different cultures can react so differently to that same message that it dawned on me that every time that you're launching something global, you've really got to take into account how different cultures are going to react to it. And having those crucial conversations before attempting to do any of that.

Jean: 33:53

Yeah, absolutely. We're coming to the end of our time together, and I'm wondering if you could briefly just share a little bit about your experience, because you've, you've had a very full career. You are in the middle of a very full career and you have two young children. How are you balancing that?

Vanessa: 34:16

Ah, they are the pride and joy of my life. Um, you know, I, I think of identity not as, not in a singular way, but I think there are many parts to, to a whole being. I'm a professional, I'm a leader. I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a daughter. And rather than thinking of life on a balancing scale, I, I think of it as an integrated whole. Um, so. When I think about how I integrate all these different selves into a whole, I think of how each one may take priority at different times in the day, or, you know, at, at any one point. I have a few things that I do. Um, I lean a great deal on my village or my board of directors at home. I recognize I cannot do everything myself, so leaning on my village, um, Where I am less able or where I'm less available is so important. So friends and family, my professional network, um, I have a really great partner. My husband is fully involved. We are really true partners in crime. Um, we explore the world together. He's my sparring partner. Um, we dream, we debate, and we really do this together. So he has been instrumental in. Really being able to help me to integrate all these different selves. I also think taking care of myself and having a full life outside of work is so important. Um, there are many selves to this whole being. Right. Um, and so I, I make sure that I take care of. Of myself in order to make sure that I can take care of others. So, working out, like what I mentioned earlier, I take time to do strength training at the gym, running, doing yoga. Um, I also take on different projects outside of work too. So a couple years ago, I decided to go back to school and pursue my post-graduate degree. That was really something I, I did for myself. It was a dedicated time where I immersed myself in something I truly, truly have been waiting to do for a number of years. But I really enjoyed the discovering a new world of knowledge and really developing a new network, uh, for myself and also to do something different, beyond my professional self to, to really challenge myself to do something different. So, I think back to your question on how I balance it, I, I do my best to balance, but I also think it is an integrated whole

Jean: 36:50

Mm. Wow, I can hear that. I imagine that there's a few people listening thinking, wow, you are, um, have an amazing ability to integrate and manage your time and to hold all those pieces together in a beautiful way. So,

Vanessa: 37:06

I, I do have a great deal of help.

Jean: 37:09

Good. We, we need that help. So, as we are drawing to a close, the final question I have for you is, is there a book or a podcast that you would recommend that's really impacted you?

Vanessa: 37:22

I do, Was thinking about this question. A book that has really inspired me over the last few years is Working Identity by Herminia Ibarra. She's a professor of organizational behavior at the London Business School and she writes this really great book about, career reinvention and in particular how career transitions is not a straight path towards a predetermined identity, but really as you think about career, Reinvention or career transitions. It's a crooked path on some days, and it's really trying on your many possible selves, to become who you ultimately wanna be. In her book, she talks about experimenting with different professional activities. She talks about the importance of networks, which I was really inspired by and, making sense of what's happening around us. So really being self-aware of what's going on around you in light of all of these emerging possibilities. And so I was really inspired by, um, Amina IRA's book on working identity, and I. I would highly recommend that to anyone at any stage in your career.

Jean: 38:29

Thank you. We will put a link to that and also Erin Meyers books in the show notes. Yeah, cuz it's also a great book, Vanessa, thank you so much. I've got the sense of we've been with you on your career. trajectory your journey, your different stopping points along the way. And there's a, a particular sense I have about you, about your curiosity and that sense of adventure, which you've mentioned really just driving your career all the way through. And that's fantastic. That sense of woof what's over here. Let's go and have a look. I'm up for an adventure. So it's wonderful to hear that and your energy and enthusiasm and thank you so much for being on the podcast with me today.

Vanessa: 39:14

Great. Well, Jean, thank you so much. It has been quite an adventure going on this podcast, show with you. So I really wanna thank you too for having me on the show and, wishing everyone on, on the podcast a great adventure with life and career.

Jean: 39:29

Brilliant. Thank you.