Speaker 1: 0:00

You are listening to Making Sense of Work with Jean Balfour. Hi everyone, and welcome to Making Sense of Work Today. I'm delighted to be joined by Ellie Scarfe. Welcome to the podcast, ellie. Thank you for having me, jean. It's my pleasure and I'm really looking forward to having a great conversation today about the work that you're doing helping coaches to build their businesses. Before we jump into that, I'm going to tell you a bit about Ellie and how she comes to be doing what she's doing.

Speaker 1: 0:37

She is the founder and CEO of Lucent Global and has dedicated much of her professional life to supporting organisations and leaders through personal, professional and complex organisational transition. She commenced her career in a top tier Australian law firm as a solicitor, before she followed her passion for people and change into more human, centcentered roles in learning and development, organization development and organizational transformation. She then moved into setting up her own executive coaching business and that's led her to where she is today. Ali now runs the Impact Coach Collective, where she supports executive coaches in building their businesses, and she will tell us a lot more about that today.

Speaker 1: 1:28

This particular part of her life builds on her whole career journey, but there was one role that really stood out for me, and this was a role that Ali had at Fuji Xerox, where she was responsible for developing and championing the sales transformation strategy for a billion-dollar organization undergoing a dramatic business redirection. During that time, she coached the sales executive team nationally, served on the innovation leadership team and facilitated the strategic planning processes for the organization, ensuring clear outcomes and robust discussion, and I'm sure she brings this experience to helping us, as coaches, to build our sales and strategic capabilities, and I'm really looking forward to hearing about that. So how's work at the moment, annie?

Speaker 2: 2:17

Do you know? I was thinking about that. How is work? And I would have to say that, probably like a lot of coaches and leaders, I am in a really interesting season of transition and I think that is a theme that comes up for most people that I talk to. I don't talk to many people who tell me that everything is boring and they're coasting. I'm hearing that people just like me are just doing big things and it feels like a lot. So I would say I'm in that season too.

Speaker 2: 2:47

So for me, I run, as you very kindly mentioned, two businesses. One is an executive coaching practice working with corporate clients, and one is working with executive coaches on the business of coaching, and I would say that setting up this second business over the last few years has been one of the biggest and most fabulous learning curves that I have ever been on, and there's a few reasons for that. I think it's a different way of thinking about business. I think it's selling to a different audience, but I'm just doing new things. So I've launched a podcast inspired not in some small part by you, Jean. I'm learning about marketing funnels. I'm learning about advertising. It's a lot. So that is work for me. But alongside the huge learning curve is just the amazing work that I get to do. So I'm balancing the stress with the meaning that I get from and the purpose from doing this work.

Speaker 1: 3:45

Yeah, and I know I hear from and the purpose from doing this work. Yeah, and I know I hear from people who are in your community and talking about the value they're getting from being there, how helpful it is. As I was listening to you, I was thinking about something that I remind myself of sometimes that the entrepreneurial journey, the business journey, is often the biggest self-development, self-growth journey as well, because all of the pressures and opportunities that come with running a business come to you personally. If you're the owner and the runner of the business. It's all down to you and how you manage yourself, your energy, your resilience and all of that.

Speaker 2: 4:23

All of the above and I'm trying really hard to focus on that learning, because sometimes it can feel overwhelming. But if we start to think about, well, what is, what is it exactly that I am getting from this life experience, I think that can be helpful yeah, for sure, for sure, and in this you've you've had a lot of transition yourself.

Speaker 1: 4:46

At the moment, what does a really good day look like for you?

Speaker 2: 4:50

a really good day I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I'm going to say it anyway a really good day for me is when I have a lot of white space in my calendar.

Speaker 2: 5:01

So a really good day allows me not only to spend that time connecting and doing the work that I find meaningful so like being hands-on with my clients but I also my best days are when I have space on my calendar to be creative, and I don't mean creative as in go and, you know, paint an abstract watercolor, which I do like to do on occasions as well but that creativity for me is that time to work on my business.

Speaker 2: 5:27

So when I get to think about strategy, when I get to think about you know ideas and to read and listen and learn, and like those days just light me up and they sustain me, for you know the times when it can feel a bit more like a grind, because there are those days as well, of course. So for me, I like that balance, I like the connection with my clients and feeling like I'm making a difference and that time for me to invest in thinking. And then the other thing I'm not sure if I'm supposed to say this either is. I find my best days are when I have really good boundaries about when I stop working, and that helps me to to really feel a sense that I've I've been intentional about what I was doing and that, for me, is a big part of enjoyment.

Speaker 1: 6:15

Isn't it curious that it's almost a guilt with identifying two things that are essentially essential in business Having white space because we all need white space and it's become such a precious and small commodity for most people Most people's diaries are back-to-back I notice a bit about myself and then being able to go home on time two things that we should be having in our everyday life and yet there's some sense of oof. Am I allowed to say this? You're right.

Speaker 2: 6:47

I'm going to embrace that and I do talk about that with coaches all the time which is, we actually make this decision to be in this business that we're in so that we can be flexible to do things not just in the times that we want to do them, but the way we want to do them. So you know, I'm not really apologetic about it, but it certainly doesn't match that paradigm of the hard-working business owner. Sometimes not that I don't work hard, but that I'm not quite. So yeah, back-to-back zoom calls nowadays gives me a bit of bit of stress and I think it gives everybody a bit of stress.

Speaker 1: 7:22

I think think this is the reality and I am so curious about this. Anyway, it's probably for a whole other conversation about how do we create white space and how do senior leaders create white space, because if they've not got white space either, they're not thinking about the business, they're too busy in it. So, so amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I introduced you a little bit and shared a bit about your journey, but it would be really lovely to hear the story of how did you, how does your career unfold, so that you ended up doing this?

Speaker 2: 7:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:57

So I think the starting point for me was was that that I started my career as a lawyer. And I was in law for pretty terrible reasons really, which is that I was at high school, I was smart and I could be a doctor, an engineer or a lawyer and I didn't like blood. And I went on engineering camp and it didn't seem that interesting to me. So I thought, oh, law it is. And so I became a lawyer. I was a lawyer in a big firm and it was fine, but I just did not have that passion that would let me. Let me give what I wanted to give to something. That was the work I chose to do. It was fine, and you know I don't want a life that's just fine. So you know, other than that I also at that time and this is in the early 2000s, late 90s, maybe there weren't really any good role models for what it meant to be a senior female lawyer, and so I could not see myself building a career in law in a way that would work for me, and so I knew that. You know, I had this very at the time it was unformulated, but this sense that I wanted to help people and I wanted to work with people and so I ended up moving into various HR roles and eventually ended up in the L&D space and the organisation development space, which was a good fit for me. And while I was there I learned about this idea of coaching and, partly because of a coworker and partly on the recommendation of a good friend and mentor of mine, I started my coaching training at Sydney University in one of the first coaching psychology units and I never looked back. So I'd been doing some training on the side of my job as a psychotherapist, which I really loved. But I discovered when I started coaching that it was such a better fit because I really love the complexity of organizational dynamics and I loved the evidence-based approaches that I was learning Like. I really felt like I could invest in them. And so shortly after that I thought I'm just going to give it a go. And you know, like looking back now, would I make the same decision to do it quite so suddenly? I'm not so sure. I probably would need a lot more scaffolding now, but I did it quickly.

Speaker 2: 10:17

I made all of the mistakes. I made a lot of financial mistakes, especially when I first set up a coaching business. Mistakes, especially when I first set up a coaching business and I ended up going in-house as a coach at Fuji Xerox, which you mentioned, and I was the national sales coach there, and that meant that I was coaching all the sales leaders around the country which not on sales but on their leadership capability, their ability to lead a sales organization, and I also had the benefit of then taking on the sales strategy and sales capability for the organization, which at the time, as you mentioned, was a billion dollar sales org. And so this was probably the best coaching experience I could have had, because we had volume, we had complexity, I learned about organizational dynamics and politics and and all of that, and and no one admits that they enjoy organizational politics except I think I do Like I don't necessarily like being involved in it, but I like watching it.

Speaker 2: 11:18

And so, you know, eventually, after after five years there and so, you know, eventually after five years there, I left that role, had my daughter, and that's when I decided to get serious about rebuilding my coaching business and I went through, you know, the usual process of being an associate coach, becoming a partner in a coaching business and then running my own coaching business, both in partnership and solo over the few years after that and that sort of takes me to where I am now, in the last few years, which have been really leaning into the passion I have for working with coaches and specifically in that coach business phase, because I know so many of us start out as coaches like I did without really knowing what's involved in being a business owner and I think it's so important that we learn more skills around both the mindset and the practicalities and you know, there's just some information that you need to know if you want to be particularly an executive or leadership coach what it means to work with organizations, because that can be quite complex as well and I've just had so much joy in that and I feel really, really happy and lucky to be where I am.

Speaker 1: 12:32

Well, and I, as I said earlier, I know your offering is amazing. I think one of the things that happens when we go out on our own is is a potential for loneliness actually, and that kind of I mean. Yeah you know.

Speaker 1: 12:43

So many coaches say to me how do I know what to do this? How do I know how to get my prices right? This normal, the client's asking me for this. How do I know that? And and I know I had all of those questions when I started out and, yeah, and you learn them the answers to those the hard way actually, and it's great that you're able to offer something that helps people learn an easier way the answers to those questions.

Speaker 2: 13:07

Exactly. And you know what I'd done I think probably for a couple of years or a few years before I officially started this program is I actually had developed a really long document that had all of my thoughts and ideas and things you need to know that I would just send to friends and network that were becoming coaches and cause. I just, I just didn't want people not to have this information when they started out, because I thought, if I can take, you know, six months off your learning curve, if I can help you get to where you need to be without, with less of the roller coasters, then I wanted to do that and then that's that then became the business that I have now.

Speaker 1: 13:46

Great.

Speaker 2: 13:47

Which is fantastic. I still have that document. By the way, it's a very long document. I should print it and frame it. It's like the foundation.

Speaker 1: 13:55

Yeah, it's the blueprint, it's the yeah.

Speaker 2: 13:57

It's really the blueprint.

Speaker 1: 13:59

And so a bit linked to that, could you share a bit about how you then went about building your coaching business? So when you came out of Fuji Zero, how did you go about creating that?

Speaker 2: 14:11

Yeah, so I am always really conscious that I've had a huge amount of support to get to where I am. Piece about loneliness is really important is that what is the community that we have that we can lean on, who are going to cheer us on, who are going to give that advice? And I think, to some degree, I just got so lucky in that I had brilliant mentors that helped me, and I had one mentor in particular who brought me on as an associate coach, and I had one mentor in particular who brought me on as an associate coach, which was very helpful. So my first coaching engagements were as an associate coach, both the first time around and after leaving Xerox and sort of getting a bit more serious about it. And so I think about, you know, those early days of building and my first clients came from mentors, partnerships, relationships and referrals, and I think that those are key for everyone, but it's not enough anymore.

Speaker 2: 15:12

So I think back then and this is a long time ago now I think that things have shifted a little bit and I think that if I had my time again, I would also have done a lot more deliberate, focusing on sales and marketing, which I have done since, and I, you know, obviously have have really developed that muscle, but when I started I didn't know that, that I needed to do that, and I think that would have helped with sustainability, with, you know, like minimizing the the ups and downs.

Speaker 2: 15:42

And then I think you know, the other thing that was a real pivotal inflection point in growing my coaching businesses is when I started viewing myself as a business owner as well as a coach and I talk about that constantly, like I think it is just such an important point is that as coaches, if we just want to be coaches, then we're going to be missing a big piece of the puzzle. And I don't want us to just endure being a business owner, I want us to enjoy it and I want us to find, like that sense of identity and, you know, some joy in it.

Speaker 1: 16:12

Hopefully, yeah, I so agree with this. I mean, I think it's a real tension because people come into coaching because they want to coach, because they gain such enormous satisfaction from the experience of coaching, and I often hear people saying I just want to coach, I've said that myself many times at those moments where I say I just want to coach and it's not possible.

Speaker 1: 16:40

actually, the hard reality is that if you just want to coach, you still have to be hired by people, you still have to go through some form of sales process, some form of onboarding, and even if you're working with individuals one-on-one, you still need to know how to run accounting systems and pay your taxes.

Speaker 2: 16:59

and it's the reality yeah, and even if you want to work as an associate coach, you actually have to sell yourself into the coaching organizations that might bring you in Like it's it's. It's not a case that people will just say, oh you're a coach, Wonderful here, let me give you some work. And that is, you know, deeply sad, because wouldn't it be wonderful that everyone would recognize how great the coaches around us are. But it just doesn't.

Speaker 1: 17:26

doesn't work like that no, and I actually think that's important because it brings discernment actually into the coaching industry, where people the people buying coaching are also checking the quality and experience of the people they're hiring.

Speaker 2: 17:42

Yes, yeah, absolutely Absolutely. But so you know how I built my coaching business? Yeah, I think it was part mindset, part relationships and part figuring out good systems for sales and marketing, and I think also, I would say now, looking back, consistency, and there is also a degree of discipline that is required to build a business that I hadn't really realized. And you know, I've always had a story that I've told myself, which is that I'm not a very disciplined person and I'm not very good at attention to detail. And so you know, I had to do that work on myself to figure out. Well, actually, you know I can, there are ways I can do that. This story is not serving me very well anymore, and so I'm going to try on some different views of myself and and see what new evidence I can give myself, and that has been very helpful.

Speaker 1: 18:38

I think that's great because often I think for coaches that story is I'm not an entrepreneur, I'm not a business owner, and and we can change that story.

Speaker 2: 18:47

We can yeah, we can, and I think also the other mindsets that come up that I think those stories people have are you know, I'm not comfortable putting myself out there, or there's something embarrassing or shameful about being seen to be promoting myself, and that's something that we need to get over. Um, that's not easy, Like, I still have that sometimes. Sometimes I look at my website and my LinkedIn feed and I go who am I to have like 1000 photos of myself on the internet? What's going on? Um, you know, cause I consider myself to be quite a private person. And then I then I have all this other evidence.

Speaker 1: 19:23

Um.

Speaker 2: 19:24

But yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:25

Yeah, but people buy through trust and experience of a person, and that's particularly in coaching, that's particularly true.

Speaker 2: 19:34

So they need to see you. Yes, yes, and I also figure I better walk the talk. If I'm telling people to you know, let people connect with them through showing up on social media, being, you know, specifically LinkedIn, then I better be doing that as well.

Speaker 1: 19:49

I know that you've built an executive coaching business and quite often people ask me is there a difference in setting up a life coaching business or executive coaching business? And how does that look? Do you have any thoughts?

Speaker 2: 20:01

about that? I do, I do have thoughts about this and I think, firstly, it's like do we think life coaching and executive coaching is different? And for me, I think that the big difference is context. You know, I think that in both types of coaching we are working with a whole person, right, we're bringing the perspectives that we have to that person, based on their priorities, but what is different, I think, is the context that we overlay. And I think that then feeds into how we build the business, and I'm curious about your take on this, jane.

Speaker 2: 20:33

But in executive and leadership coaching, the complexity of organizational dynamics is at play, and it's at play for us as a vendor, in that there is a client being the organization and there is the coachee who we work with, and so there are politics that happen across this dynamic of client, coach, coachee, and we play a role in that as a coach, and we play a role in that when we're selling coaching services in.

Speaker 2: 21:06

So I think that that is the big difference, because we're setting up a business that will speak not just to the individual, or not even primarily to the individual, but to the organization, and that is a big difference, and a lot of coaches that I talk to are speaking to the individual, so the leaders that they want to work with. Speaking to the individuals, so the leaders that they want to work with but they want to contract into organizations and we talk a lot about, well, how do we handle that? Because there's a flow on into the offers that we have, because one offer might be appealing to an individual but it might not work for an organization who buys at scale. It's going to flow onto the messaging we have. It's going to flow into we need to be more resilient for longer sales cycles. We need to understand there's different payment terms we need to set up as suppliers. So I think it is quite different and I think people don't necessarily have an understanding about that. Tell me what's your take on that yeah, very similar actually, I think it's.

Speaker 1: 22:10

It's much less about what happens in the coaching room and much more about how we sell services yeah and so I have a growing what might be called life coaching business, because individuals are coming to me privately and contracting with me privately. Um, and I love that because actually we haven't got that third party, they're guiding the coaching, we're independent of that. But actually it doesn't look very different to the coaching that I'm doing with individuals in organizations where I'm contracting with them. The main difference is that, um, when I'm coaching in through an organization, in an organization, we have agreed goals. You know, we've we've got a coaching contract that's partly agreed by the organization, although there's always for me some I always negotiate room around that, uh. But whereas with the individual it's all about them, it's all about what are they coming to the coaching for?

Speaker 2: 23:09

Yeah, and even within organisations like I've got clients that span a full gamut of, you know, wanting to be very connected to the purpose of the coaching and having a say in the objectives to ones who are really like this is a development opportunity for this individual.

Speaker 2: 23:25

You do what you need to do and so I think we just need to be I don't know if it's more flexible or more, you know more responsive to the needs of the clients in a different way and understanding that it doesn't look the same. But, yeah, I agree, the conversations we're having, they're different for every person anyway, Whether we put a, you know, a life coaching bracket or a banner or an executive coaching banner on it. I have interestingly had a lot of people talking to me recently about whether executive coaching is just for the C-suite and, you know, whether, if we're doing executive coaching, we're only coaching those people who are in that executive leadership team. And I'm curious about your take too, Jean. But my take is that the executive refers to the organisational context, not the role of the person that we're coaching. So we might be able to substitute the word leadership coaching and really mean the same thing. Is that how you use the word?

Speaker 1: 24:24

Yes, and actually I've recently been. I've been thinking about this too. I wonder whether we should do away with the term executive coaching, actually, and shift it to leadership coaching because it leaves it feeling a bit elitist actually, and leadership can be for aspiring leaders, it can take. It takes it outside of that box that suggests that it's just for the people who have reached the top, whatever that means in the organisation.

Speaker 2: 24:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that too, and I think leadership, you know it's inclusivity is, I mean you can. It can be related to self-leadership, it can be related to functional leadership, um, it can be people leadership, it can be you know anything, um, but the organizational context is the theme, uh, for me yeah, yeah, me too, me too, as you've been building this.

Speaker 1: 25:14

We talked a little bit about this being the ultimate personal development journey. Yes, yeah, what have you learned about building a business as you've been going through this?

Speaker 2: 25:21

I've thought about three, three lessons to distill it to, and they're quite varied. One is I'm going to repeat myself is that you have to view yourself as a business owner and a coach, not one or the other. And again, I learned this the hard way. So that's one of the hard lessons I learned and one that I repeat because I think it's so important. The next lesson is that if it's related to sales and marketing and it's that if we are really deeply caught up in our negative perceptions of sales and marketing and being a salesperson or a marketer, then that is going to stop us showing up in a really positive way. And I hear all of the all of the words from people about how they don't want to be salesy, they don't want to be a used car salesman, they don't want to be sleazy, they don't want to be inauthentic, they don't want to be manipulative, and so if we've got those really strong associations with sales and marketing, then of course we're not going to show up. Of course we're not going to want to be visible. We're not going to show up. Of course we're not going to want to be visible, we're not going to want to do the outreach that we need to do.

Speaker 2: 26:36

So I think a big lesson I've learned is that I have to think about sales and marketing as a really positive process and something that adds value to the people in my orbit, in order to be able to do it effectively. And I think about the value of it in a few ways. I mean, firstly, if no one knows who we are, then how are we possibly going to have the impact that we want to have on the world and our clients? So you know, that's the first one. The next one is that you know, and it's related, but I think sales is essentially good selling and is a consultative process that looks a lot like coaching, right, is a consultative process that looks a lot like coaching, right? So it looks like how do I understand what is going on for you, what your challenges are, what your experience is, and only then can I figure out well, what is a way that I can help you to achieve your goals and your, you know, solve your pain points, and that, to me, is actually a service, right? I think there is a huge amount of service in selling if we're doing it well and if we're doing it with a spirit of generosity and openness and for me, I always think about selling, as I want to be as generous as I can, so I'm generous with ideas, I want to be generous with time. I think that that creates a really positive environment and it makes me feel good about it. And if I feel good about it, then I'm going to be more compelling.

Speaker 2: 27:52

So that's the second one, and then the third one is sort of more about and this is more about thinking about myself as a coach, and that is that you know, you have to find your own identity as a coach as well, and if I put my business hat on partially that, so that you can be clear about you know, sometimes you need an offer and sometimes you want to think about who you want to sell to.

Speaker 2: 28:18

But you know, for me I discovered the world of developmental approaches to coaching, and what that let me do was really understand what was important to me when I coach, which is that I'm showing up with my client as they are, I'm meeting them where they're at and I'm going to then tailor my approaches based on that. Now, everyone will have a different view. So I also, you know, bring a lot of positive psychology approaches to my coaching. I bring you know a number of approaches, but having that clarity about how I work as a coach allows me to think much more clearly and understand the value that I bring and when I really can embody that, that sense of yes, there is value in coaching, there is value in the process. I know who I am, then. That lets me be more comfortable showing up and being more visible in a sales context.

Speaker 1: 29:09

Be more comfortable showing up and being more visible in a sales context.

Speaker 2: 29:12

So that's just three.

Speaker 1: 29:12

I feel like I could go on for hours. I could add to them. I think that's fantastic, this idea that we need to be able to articulate who we are and how we work and the type of work we do. I think that takes time to build that, but I would encourage coaches, new coaches or any person in business to be writing that out all the time and really thinking about and crafting it and practicing saying it yes yeah, yeah, yeah there are two books that came to mind when you're talking about sales that I really have loved.

Speaker 1: 29:42

One is Daniel Pink's book to sell as human and so he writes a lot about how we're all selling all the time and basically we need to reprogram our story about sales because actually we think that when we think about selling, we think about somebody on a hard sell in a particular environment, but actually when we're trying to convince a two-year-old that it's bedtime, we're also in a sales negotiation and you know that we're actually doing it all the time I need to read that book yeah, it's good.

Speaker 1: 30:13

And then the other one is keith verazzi's book never eat alone, which is a great book on networking, and it links to what you were saying about generosity.

Speaker 2: 30:22

So his whole frame on networking is that it's an act of generosity yeah, yeah, and because networking can seem like we might want to like gouge our eyes out if we have to do too much of it, um, but yeah, if we're there to think about how do we add value, what can we learn?

Speaker 2: 30:39

you know, we can be curious, it can be quite fun, um and it's a relationship building actually, actually exactly exactly, and you know, some of us might need to go back and recharge our introvert batteries afterwards, um you know, but others of us will be really energized by that as well.

Speaker 1: 30:56

I have some very close friends I met through networking and I I think that's the other thing for me is, I think, if we see it as that form of relationship building and it shifts it beyond sales networking, marketing and makes it about relationship building.

Speaker 2: 31:16

I have definitely got some friends who are now called clients and some clients not coachees necessarily, but clients who are now called friends, and you know, I think it's a yeah, it's a relationships game. Now I would say I don't think that relationship-based selling is enough when it comes to having a good sales strategy. I think that relationships are important, but I think there's also, you know, the consultative piece of the selling. Engagement in an organisation is also important, but we also have to just be human and we're selling to human beings.

Speaker 1: 31:46

Yes, yeah, that's very true, because you the relationship is with the person, but actually the contract is with the organization and yes, that needs to work for them, yeah yes, yeah, absolutely so, of course, part of what I do is is help people uh, trainers, coaches and, and some go off to set up a coaching practice. Yes, I'm wondering. Well, I know that you've got some thoughts about a couple of ideas about what people could be thinking about when they set out to set up a coaching business.

Speaker 2: 32:18

Yeah, absolutely. This is like my favorite question. I think, firstly, we need to do our own work on ourselves, and that includes doing our mindset work, doing, you know, getting the journal out and thinking about what is going to help us and what is going to hinder us when it comes to our story of being a business owner or being in business. And that includes do we think about ourselves as business owners? How do we think about sales, all of that stuff? We need to unearth that before we can actually get on with it, because actually a lot of these things have the potential to undermine us if we're not aware of them, just like our derailers. Right, I would do that as something pretty early on and continually right, because the things that might get in the way continue to emerge. And I know that you've spoken, jean, on your podcast about the book the Big Leap by Gay Hendricks and that idea that you know those upper limit problems where we start to sabotage ourselves, largely subconsciously, you know, I see that come up often with people, you know, in the early few years of their coaching business. It'll look different for everyone, but you need to be going through a process of actually just exploring, like what is making me feel uncomfortable right now. How am I thinking about the things I'm doing? Where am I feeling the resistance? You know what feels awkward? What help am I not asking for? So that would be my first thing. And probably related to that help piece is that actually you need to reach out to and tap into your network a lot more than you think you do, and that is on a couple of levels. So one level is reaching out to your network just for support, because we need to have those cheerleaders, the support network, the people who know and respect and love us deeply, to support us through this journey. But I also think we need to be tapping into our professional networks, because the way I like to think about those getting your first few clients is that we have our professional credibility. That's based on our career so far, and it's usually in a particular industry or area or profession or whatever it is. And then we have our credibility as a coach, which is usually based on our hours of coaching experience and our coach training. And when we start trying to sell, our professional credibility is higher than our coaching credibility. So we need to leverage that by connecting to the people who know us with that professional hat on and in the industries where we've got that professional credibility, because that's where we can transfer coaching into that industry much more easily than we can sell coaching in somewhere else. And then over time that shifts and coaching becomes the higher point of credibility and then we can sell the coaching into any environment, because we know that coaching is largely context agnostic, but selling is not context agnostic. So I think that that's a really important thing to think about.

Speaker 2: 35:13

You need to be tapping into your existing networks and you need to do it more than you think you do. So you know, sometimes when I talk to people and I say, yeah, well, if you are starting out and you have time, then you should send I'm going to say 50 messages a day, right, there's nothing to stop you reaching out to that many people, and of course it depends on the nature of your network. But sometimes when I tell people that they're like, oh, oh, I was sending a message each day and thinking that was enough, I'm like, no, no, we need volume and we need quality when we're trying to generate that momentum and eventually it does become momentum that builds on itself with referrals and continued work, but in the early days. We're trying to, we're trying to start it from from us. You know a slow start.

Speaker 2: 35:58

So, just more, more than you think. And then the other thing I would say is that when you're starting out, don't underprice yourself, because you may be early in your coaching journey but you bring a lot of credibility from other parts of your world and I do see coaches really violently undercharging and one of the issues with that is that people are going to view you as less credible if you aren't charging enough. And also, I think you can just miss the market and miss opportunities in that regards. But I mean, we can always grow and I've got a lot of strategies about how to build your pricing. But yeah, I think, just try not to undercharge.

Speaker 1: 36:45

I know that for people it feels really hard and I completely agree with you and I know you support people. It feels really hard and I completely agree with you and I know you support people and in your programs to think about how they're going to do that and set those strategies yeah, absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 1: 36:59

I mean, I can't agree. I can't agree with you more about the networks. You know people will say to me when they're thinking about maybe one day I'll be a coach in five years and the first thing I say to them is really a network is everything when you start. So start thinking about that now. Think about who's in your network, how are you relating to them, how can you connect with them?

Speaker 2: 37:18

You know all of that, that it's really fundamental, absolutely, and if you're in that sort of you know one year bracket before you might be about to start your business, it is worth sowing the seeds Now. I always say the best client that you get is the one you've just left. So you know, building good relationships, understanding the coaching panel structure, identifying the needs before you leave and then coming back and consulting in, either as a coach or to deliver some sort of you know, training or workshops, because you've got that technical and organisational knowledge. I mean that's such a great transition, if possible.

Speaker 1: 37:56

So yeah, yeah, for sure, build those networks. Yes, yes, great. Can you tell us about your program, because we've alluded to it and I? It's a wonderful thing that you're doing, so could you? Share about it and shamelessly sell it I would love to.

Speaker 2: 38:16

I would love to, um, to, yeah, really share what we do. So so there are three ways that people work with me. Um, just really quickly, I do do one-on-one coaching and I do have a standalone digital course which is all about. It's called the Corporate to Coach Blueprint. It is the foundational foundations you need to build a thriving coaching practice. But the piece of my work that I'm most passionate about is it's called the Impact Coach Collective.

Speaker 2: 38:43

I try and figure out how to define it. The closest I can come is that it is a group coaching community, and so, you know, within it we have a lot of curriculum, so there's access to the digital course and all of the recordings. But the key bit is that every month, we connect three to four times and we do it in a few key ways. So we have a masterclass every month. You know, for example, this month, our masterclass was a 90 day content sprint where the group we worked through the basics of building a content strategy for what you're going to post on LinkedIn and identifying your themes and how it's all going to flow and what exactly you're going to post when. So we did that, but we have a different topic. So sometimes it's sales conversations, sometimes it's outreach, it could be financial management, you name it. And each month we also have a coaching Q&A session where people bring whatever is on their mind and we work through it. So that's when people get my eyes on their business and I can say you know, yes, let's talk about your offer, let's talk about who you're working with. Let's workshop a client issue. Let's figure out what you should price for something. Let's figure out what you could add on how could you make a pro bono client a paid client? You know, whatever it is. So that's really hands-on and offering each other ideas as well, because there's so much professional expertise in the room.

Speaker 2: 40:08

You know, some people come to coaching from senior HR roles, for example. You know, and they've got so much insight on, well, how does decision-making happen. Sometimes there's people working on similar topics and they can work together and, yeah, it's amazing. And then we also have deal clinics. So deal clinics are where we get really specific and we don't record these for confidentiality purposes, but these are about, if you've got a specific deal, you're trying to figure out what should be in the proposal. You're trying, you know, like a deal's gone quiet and you want to figure out a strategy to reinvigorate it, to get that client. You want to talk about, specifically, pricing and opportunity, all of those things. Now, to be honest, if someone has a different question, we'll also talk about that. But that's the theory of how it works. And then every few months we'll have a guest expert to come and run a panel. So we've had panels on how to navigate coaching, chemistry, conversations, which is interesting. We've had a panel on supervision and I think we'll probably have one on assessments coming up.

Speaker 2: 41:09

So that's what we do. We also have a great Facebook community where people can ask questions and that gives me a chance to you know answer and everyone else to answer in between our calls which is fabulous. Amazing yeah, Amazing yeah it is, and what I really love is just the people in the group. The coaches are extraordinary, you know they're at all different levels, so some of them haven't left their job to start their business. They're in that their planning phase.

Speaker 1: 41:34

some of them are a few years in um, but it just works I love this idea and I so wish it was there when I was starting out, because I made the most of that. I know for sure. Yeah, amazing, amazing, okay. So we're coming to a close. I always like to finish with asking you whether there's a podcast or a book or something that you love, that supports your work, that other people might find helpful.

Speaker 2: 42:06

I found this so hard to choose because I am an all person, not a, you know, a focused person. So I have, I have a few. Can I share a few books?

Speaker 2: 42:15

that are in my are in my recommendation list. I realize a lot of them have the word million dollar in them, which is kind of weird and seems very self-help-y. But firstly, the book we should all be millionaires by Rachel Rogers was pivotal to me in thinking about myself as a business owner. So if you struggle with that, um and particularly I think this is great for people who are women or people of color Um, this book it's so inspiring to think about. You know your ability to to build a wonderful business, so I love that.

Speaker 2: 42:50

Another one I really like is 100 Million Dollar Leads by Alex Hormozy. Now, I like this one because it has helped me to think about marketing in a different way, which is that I need to balance relationships, referrals, you know those sorts of selling opportunities, with just having enough eyeballs on what I do to be able to build those relationships. So if I don't have enough people seeing what I do, then it's not possible for me to get that many clients, and I think that's the same for everyone. So look this one. I don't know if this is for everyone. This is maybe a little bit advanced, but if you want to think about selling a little bit differently, that could be helpful. And then the last one I want to share is a book by Russ Harris called the Happiness Trap, and this is one Jane's laughing knowingly.

Speaker 1: 43:43

It's my most recommended book ever, I think.

Speaker 2: 43:47

Okay, yeah, I love it because it helps me to think a little bit differently about a lot of the challenges that we have as coaches, because all of the things like a lack of confidence, feeling, you know, a struggle with visibility, feeling anxious about where the next client is coming from, you know, the approach in this book is not, you know, let me, let me unearth all of the problems with my thinking and find all the evidence about why I'm wrong, which is which is also great right, cognitive behavioral approaches are excellent, but it also gives me that sense of, okay, hang on, I can just be uncomfortable and I can feel what I'm feeling and I can know that I'm doing something important and do it anyway. Right, I can stay connected to those, that vision and the values that I have, and I can take action even though I'm feeling uncomfortable, even though I don't have confidence.

Speaker 1: 44:40

So, yeah, those, those and and I think that helps not just in work but in life um, that book, I love it yeah, I mean I think in business it's an amazing book because it helps you reframe those difficult times, but I also recommend it to everybody.

Speaker 2: 44:58

Amazing.

Speaker 1: 44:59

Ellie, thank you so much for joining us. I know that what you've shared will be really inspiring for people and I really encourage everybody to come and find you. You're on LinkedIn. You have a great website. We'll put links to that in the show notes and you are there to help people build these businesses, and I know you're doing a great job. So thank you.

Speaker 2: 45:20

Thank you so much for having me, jane. You are an absolute inspiration to me as well, and I would encourage everyone to explore Jane's coaching programs as well, because I must say when I'm asked what is my, what do I recommend in terms of coach training, it is always Bailey Balfour. So thank you for doing the work you do.

Speaker 1: 45:39

Yeah, that's good, all right, Thank you. All right See ya, thanks for joining this episode of Making Sense of Work. If you enjoyed it, please go and subscribe, rate and review. If you have a topic you'd like me to explore in the podcast, please follow the show notes and send me a message.