Welcome And Why Anxiety Is Rising

Jean 0:14

Hi everyone, and welcome to The Fulfilled Leader. I'm really delighted today to welcome my sister, Helen Williams, back to the podcast for a second time. Welcome, Helen.

Helen 0:29

Hi, Jane. Lovely to be here.

Jean 0:32

Mm. So good for us to have this conversation in this space. Me too. Helen is a mindfulness teacher and therapist who's been embodying mindfulness for much of her life, and I am so grateful that she has done that because she has brought it into my life as well. And I've asked Helen back because there's a lot of people I talk to at the moment, and a lot of what we're reading in the media and in social media about people being really worried or triggered by anxiety, by all that's happening. And, you know, I don't have to list all of that to you, uh, listeners, but you know, it's the rise of AI, it's our global events, it's, uh, climate change. I know because my focus is about people at work, I talk to a lot of people who are either concerned about their jobs or they see others concerned about their jobs, or a conversation with people yesterday worried about the young people in their lives and what their future of work will be. And I also hear and have conversations with people in corporate life who say that whilst they feel pretty secure in their job at the moment, the pressure is rising because as people are leaving the organization, they're not being replaced and so their- Mm jobs are getting bigger. So there's a lot that's contributing to, uh, people's levels of worry and anxiety, I think. And in the last episode, I talked about some strategies that I've been working with around managing my own worry. But I know that underpinning those is a whole story about mindfulness, which is some of what helps me to manage my own worry, and that's why I invited Helen back because I thought we could have another conversation about this.

What Mindfulness Really Means

Jean 2:41

So before we dive in, could you tell us a bit of your story, Helen, and how you came to be working, living with mindfulness front and center?

Helen 2:55

Oh, I'd love to. The, mindfulness has been a part of my life, the awareness of it, for such a long time. I can't remember when I began. But I know that the early roots are in Buddhist practice, and Buddhism and the ways of living it were of such high level interest to me for a long time. It really is about presence. So mindfulness is being aware of being present with what's actually happening without judging the content of what's happening. And what it's brought me is the ability to be with what is here now, and less anxious about what has passed, and very little worry about the future. And because that's really important to me, I love to share it with people.

Jean 3:44

Mm. Yes, and I, and I know that you live like that. And I, I know you obviously very well, and I see in moments where that gets knocked a little bit, you are very attentive to coming back to it.

Grounding In The Body Fast

Helen 4:00

Mm.

Jean 4:00

That you don't let that, y- yourself to be pushed off kilter.

Helen 4:06

No, and the it, the it, coming back to it is important. Because really, mindfulness practice is, is coming back to me. Where am I right now? What's happening right now? What am I feeling right now? And I can do that with one quick swipe of the body. Just, where are you, Helen? Come here.

Jean 4:26

Mm.

Helen 4:27

Yeah. Could

Jean 4:27

you say a bit more about that, about how

Helen 4:30

you do

Jean 4:30

that?

Helen 4:31

The, the, the recognition that I, rather than inhabiting my mind, actually, I'm much more present in my body, in the center of myself, so which of course is where we feel everything. So I feel, um, often what people would call fear, anxiety, as just a flutter in your belly, a bit like I've had too much coffee to drink feeling. And when I notice that, I immediately notice I've just touched myself. I put my hand probably in the middle of my chest and, and I'm inviting myself, "Turn up. Come here. What's happening?" I'm looking to my response to what's happening rather than a reaction to the external. So I'm actually just grounding myself, I think, about it. I'm just here. Come here. And come here.

Jean 5:17

Mm-hmm. I, I noticed myself doing that this morning. Um, I was having breakfast and, and had a connection with not feeling emotionally great. Mm. And then I, and then I guess what I did was I just got really curious about what's happening- Mm and coming into it. And, and once I'd connected with what was underneath the not feeling great and named it and identified it, it kind of disappeared actually, and I came back to my breakfast.

Helen 5:46

Well, it's interesting, isn't it, that as soon as you notice something, you're in the present. So you're here now, and that feeling for me is just complete safety regardless of what's happening externally. If I am here now, then I can rely on my own self-resilience. I, I can feel reliance. I can feel I trust myself. So my mind says quite quickly, "I trust myself." Doesn't matter what's going on out there, I can trust that if I'm in myself right now, then I'm not going to react. I'll mostly just respond to it. Helped actually by the phrase that I use in my meditation practice a lot, which is, slowly with each breath, I am here now with this or in this. Yeah. I'm here now in this.

Jean 6:43

Mm-hmm. Let's

Fight Flight Freeze Fawn Explained

Jean 6:48

come to thinking a bit about the current situation. And you have lived globally, you have conversations with people globally. What are you noticing about how people are reacting to experiencing this global situation that we're in?

Helen 7:12

It, it's interesting, the question. Because I'm talking with people from all around the world most nights of the week, what I'm noticing is their autonomic nervous system is controlling their reactions or responses. So in-- as part of teaching mindfulness, I've often asked people, what is your natural reaction to things? Fight, flight, freeze or fawn. And we know this, our autonomic nervous system just works from the inside of our body before we even thought. So the freezers are freezing, the fighters are fighting, the flighters are fleeing, and the fawners are doing anything that makes everybody else happy and not worry about myself. That's what I notice, regardless of where in the world and across all cultures. Fascinates me.

Jean 8:05

So the lesson there is for us to tune into what our natural response to external stress is, so what we're likely to do under those circumstances.

Helen 8:17

And to know, to know yourself in that way. So a lot of my work is working with couples, and I'm well aware after what feels like a thousand years in the industry now, that couples often choose each other because they're opposites. So the person who wants to flee the situation is often partnered with the person who actually wants to stay and fight it, and this has been a lot of the work that I've been involved in in the last few weeks, especially with the beginning of February and all the changes in the world again or still.

Jean 8:53

Still ongoing.

Helen 8:54

Yeah.

Jean 8:55

Yeah, yeah.

Helen 8:55

Mm.

Jean 8:58

So once we notice that, um, for some people... I was gonna say for some people that's easy. Actually, I don't think that mindfulness is particularly easy for anyone. I think it's a practice that it's important that we learn. But it's... I'm gonna start this question again. Because it can be hard, how can people begin to access it? How can people begin to access that ability to come into themselves, to come to the present moment, to sit with that difficulty rather than escape it?

Helen 9:39

Well, so I like that you've said, how can we learn? Uh, for some people it feels as though it's innate, that we connect with what's happening internally first. But for the vast majority of the world, I think I've often said about 80% of us, we externalize everything first. So we have a gigantic reaction and then afterwards say, "Oh, gosh, I wish I'd thought. I wish I'd..." So I think about mindfulness as the practice that we need to be doing all the time, um, in order to build ourselves to a place where we know we can trust how we're going to respond and not react. And so part of the teaching of mindfulness is teaching simple skills to help us recognize it's not hard to do, it's difficult to remember. So in the early days, the remembering, "Oh, I'll bring myself back. Oh, I've drifted away. I need to come back again. I need to notice that I am here now," till it just becomes such a deep feeling in your body that makes you feel as though I am with what's happening. My mind isn't going. And the realization of teaching people to recognize that their thoughts are taking them away. Mm. So I teach simple things like if your thoughts are like cars in the traffic. So you notice traffic driving past, we just think traffic. We climb into our thoughts as if they're real, and we go off with them on a long route sometimes. We could be gone a couple of hours without recognizing that if we're thoughts are just traffic, it's just a car. We don't say, "That's a red hybrid Ford." We just say it's a car. Maybe we might say it's a red car. We get so used to connecting with our thinking that we go off with our thoughts. For me, it's much easier to stay with what is my body feeling because my mind is just gonna keep thinking. But I can feel anxiety's arrived. I can feel, I feel ans- worrying is here, fear is here, and my first thought is, "Come here. Stay present. Let me calm you." So if you learn that over the most ordinary things on a daily basis, it just becomes second nature. So it's just important to know it isn't hard. Mm-hmm. It's difficult to remember. It's much easier to practice when you're practicing it on a really regular basis. Just tap, tap on the chest, "Come here. Come here, Helen." Make a space for it. The easy part of teaching that everyone will know is Victor Frankl's, um, between his, between the stimulus and response, there is a space. And in that space, if we take it, is our ability- To choose our response. It's making the space. So it's the constant awareness of how did that impact me? What happened in my body, uh, before I go, before I get in the car and drive off with a story? I am here now with this, and that just becomes ease really. Mm. I'm safe. I'm here now with this, regardless of what this is. Does that make sense?

Jean 12:59

Mm-hmm. Completely. Yeah. I have

Building The Habit With Tiny Reminders

Jean 13:01

an exercise that I invite clients to do if they're really struggling with this, and that's to set a timer on their phone for four or five times a day. And when it goes off- Obviously silently if they're in a meeting or something, just to, to do a quick scan of where am I? You know, is my mind gone off with worries? Is it in one of the cars? Is it traveling somewhere? And, um, when people have started doing it, they said they instantly were able to find the space quicker. Mm. Or they would suddenly become aware that they were beginning to be angry about something, or triggered, or upset, or they were just- Mm able to come back into themselves and carry on with their day, make decisions, talk to people. Um, but it was... it's a kind of a way of not even having to remind yourself to do it. The alarm goes off, you do it, and you can do it anywhere, standing at a desk, uh, sitting in a meeting.

Helen 14:01

I think there are reminders throughout the world. Like, as you know, I lived in the Middle East for a long time, and I learned the call to prayer happening really regularly was an opportunity for a non-Muslim person like me just to touch myself and say, "I'm here." Like, "Come here." Just, yeah, that's the call to being awake for me. Um, where I live currently in New Zealand, there is a school nearby, and I can hear the school bell ringing, and so I've associated when the bell rings, I again just, "Hello, come here." But mostly because I've been doing this for a long time, I'm here. It's just hello. It's the connection that I'm making. In the early days, we need to remind ourselves until it just becomes part of how we are. We, we are here. Yeah.

Jean 14:53

Yeah. And we can, we can create those things, so we can say, "Okay, when I go and make a cup of coffee-

Helen 14:59

Mm-hmm

Jean 14:59

or wash my hands- Mm-hmm or clean my teeth," and those are moments to, to tune in in that way.

Helen 15:07

And you know, I'm, um, older these days. I'm doing strength training a lot. So my practice of putting the kettle on in the kitchen is to stand on one leg and balance, and I recognize that because my attention is drawn to what my body is doing, I am present to that. So, and now at this particular time of the day, it's time for me to do some other strengthening exercises. If I walk up the stairs, I do several stair, hop step, hop step, pick up a weight. That's telling me that I know what I'm doing and I am here. I think of all the times people have throughout the day when they first sit in a chair. My latest rule has become when I sit down, I stand up and sit down again several times because that's strengthening. For my legs. But in the early days when I just presumed I was always strong, I used sitting down as a pause. Be here, now begin. So it's just a pause. It's the, what my mind is on. Today I'm really happy to say it's, it's about am I strong? Am I strengthening myself? Have I moved enough? And all of that tells me I am present, I am here. And of course, I attach it with a deep breath. That's what I do with the pause. The space is a deep breath.

Jean 16:27

Mm.

Helen 16:28

Mm.

Jean 16:28

I love this because what we're talking about now is mindfulness, and I think for many people, they hear mindfulness and they assume that that means they need to sit and meditate for 30 minutes. Mm-hmm. And what we're talking about is taking 10 seconds- Mm-hmm to just tune in. It's not-

Helen 16:47

Mm-hmm

Jean 16:48

these are not long times. These are just moments in the day.

Helen 16:53

I love... I was talking with a girlfriend recently about how we come to our center and, and she said, because we'd spoken about mindfulness, it occurred to her that when she uses a walk to notice, I'm walking and I'm noticing, oh, I just noticed some plants. I noticed that tree. I noticed that I'd never really noticed before. But because I'm drawing attention to the things that are on my pathway, I am here. And I said, "Well, I sometimes go for a walk and call it, um, it's my thankfulness walk now." So I walk at tuning in whilst I'm using my body to move with the list of ever-growing things that I'm deeply thankful for. I'm so thankful. I am so thankful, is what I'm saying to myself. But my next walk might be, let me notice the autumn trees. Let me just... There, isn't that beautiful? And my next walk might be me saying out loud, "This world is so beautiful. New Zealand is so beautiful." Mm. And all of that is, I am here now with this. I'm out for lunch yesterday with friends, and I was finding myself just so thankful to be in their company.

18:08

Mm.

Helen 18:08

And noticing that I'm noticing that I'm in their company. We're not just having lunch. I'm so grateful. Mm. Does that make sense? It

Jean 18:17

does.

Helen 18:17

It does. That's all mindfulness practice.

Jean 18:19

Mm-hmm. Psychologists talk about sort of this is metacognition.

Helen 18:23

Mm.

Jean 18:23

And I saw a social media post the other day talking about how metacognition... So metacognition is the, it would be described as the ability to observe and notice ourselves, that we're aware of ourselves. Mm. So just talking about the powerful impact it has on our mental wellbeing- Mm that ability to notice and observe ourselves. Mm. Yeah.

Helen 18:45

Yeah. I'm paying attention to you. You matter-

Jean 18:48

Mm

Helen 18:48

to me. Yes. It's like an ongoing love affair all the time. Mm. So it's interesting

Facing Uncertainty Without Control

Helen 18:53

when you apply these concepts to the really difficult things that are happening externally in the world right now. And they really are difficult. We have no control over any of it at all, and I've noticed the people I'm talking to are saying, "I feel as though I'm really out of control." And when I dig down into w- what do you not have control over really, it's the notion of I don't know what's going to happen next. And I'm like to have a conversation about how we never know what's going to happen next. We think we know, and we've kept ourselves safe by believing that we know. Mm. But actually, the next moment just extends out of the last moment. And if we just stay present to ourselves in this moment, then at least we know regardless of what happens, I know where I am, and I can trust how I'm going to respond rather than react. I know it will be a deep breath. Mm. Which will just settle my system, and then I know that I can trust myself to do the thing that I need to do next. Instead of worrying about trying to control a future that hasn't actually arrived yet, it just feels like it's going to.

Jean 20:11

Mm.

Helen 20:12

Big.

Jean 20:13

Yeah. And I, I think that's particularly acute at the moment- Yeah because of the, the global environment and, um, I n- I noticed myself, 'cause I live on a high floor, worrying about something, and then I thought... I looked around and I thought, "I'm surrounded by high-rise buildings." And I thought how ridiculous is it that probably everybody in these high-rise buildings, thousands and thousands of people, are worrying about something that actually we, A, have no control over.

Helen 20:47

Mm-hmm.

Jean 20:48

Uh, and B, isn't actually directly impacting me right at this moment. I mean, there are some impacts. You know, our fuel bills- Mm have all gone up because- Mm of what's been happening in the Middle East, for instance. Mm. So people are impacted, but actually there's something about the accessing of all of that information that- Mm the, through the news and social media and things, that is just making it so much worse. And if I stop and notice right in this moment-

Helen 21:12

Mm-hmm

Jean 21:12

actually it's kind of ridiculous that I'm worrying about it, because right in this moment right now, I'm having a lovely conversation with you and...

Helen 21:21

Yes, and it's interesting to note, isn't it, that whether it's the high-rise building... For instance, a lot of my friends and clients live in the Middle East, and those in high-rise buildings have been frightened hugely by missiles right outside the window. Must feel as though that is part of their sky. Um, so they want to leave that, and others say, "Well, what can I do about it?" So that we come back to the inner system which tells stories about our survival when you think about it. We know this. Right now, petrol's never been higher. I noticed driving yesterday with a friend, he, he commented, "Oh my word, look at the price of diesel." So we know that impacts life in New Zealand because everything's delivered by truck, by diesel. Right now, there seems to be a fine abundance of everything. When there isn't, we will still have to handle our lives, and I would rather be aware of the fact that I can see where I am and what is happening, and I'm calm enough to work out what to do or to receive instruction than to be lost in space worrying about an outcome that actually hasn't happened yet. Takes up so much air space, makes your body feel tight, right? Come back into the, well, I am here now with this, and I can trust myself.

Jean 22:51

Mm-hmm. Yes. I'm just gonna say yes, I can. Let's g- go on from that a little bit because I think that, um No, let me come back to one, another question. Sorry, let me just see what we were up to. I think we've covered most of those. Um

Simple Ways To Soothe The Nervous System

Jean 23:20

Where can somebody who's really struggling begin?

Helen 23:24

Well, that's a very good question. Excuse me. That's a very good question. Where can we begin? Well, we only have right now in this moment. But do you know there's a whole series of ways that we can learn how to calm our nervous system. So I th- I was thinking about listening to you, um, talking about worry and, and, and how you wrote, uh, you suggested we write a whole list. Well, I was thinking about the list that probably sits somewhere in my mind or in my body about the ways I can soothe myself on a regular basis. And so I've started to ask people, how do you ground yourself? So how do you begin to live differently is how do I begin to h- have a series of things I can do that can change my relationship to fear, anxiety, and worry, right? Simple things like- I like having clean hands, and I notice that I always turn on the tap and wait for the water to warm up. But the first time I didn't do that and realized the water in New Zealand is very cold in comparison to where I've come from recently, the flush of cold water on my hands gave me a sort of a burst of presence. "Oof, that's really cold." And now I've realized that if I'm, uh, anxious or worrying about something, if I just run my hands under cold water, it immediately snaps me to here. It's such a simple thing to do.

Jean 24:58

Mm-hmm.

Helen 24:58

You know, conversely, if a little comfort is needed, I'd go wash my hands in warm water, quite hot water, and enjoy the feeling of the soap and the cleansing. And when I've finished, then I'd like to put some hand cream on. These are things that we can all do, and we're saying the whole time, "This is soothing. This is touching me. This is connecting with my body. Like, I am here now." So the, the other thing is use the sunshine. Uh, because I'm used to living in the Middle East and not, uh, embracing the sunshine so much, here I've realized in New Zealand, if I walk out into it, it's very, very hot. I'd forgotten. But if I stand for a moment and put my face to the sun or turn and put my back to the sun, I'm immediately somehow or other soothed and present to myself. So if we begin by knowing there's a whole series of steps we can use to approach ourselves with care and attention and recognition... You know, on the list is, um, interesting things for me. I've taken to eating apples on a regular basis. You think when you move your jaw around a lot, crunching your way into an apple, you release a whole lot of pressure in your jawline. So eat an apple. If you're the kind of person who grips, eat an apple, but crunch your way through it, or a handful of really crunchy nuts. Mm. You realize that you're releasing. Or do what the animals do. Just stand for a minute and shake all over. Or because I'm into strengthening, uh, really run quickly on the spot for a moment or do a huge breath in and a lovely little Tai Chi move or something. The- these all take seconds. Mm. But this is the beginning of recognizing if I start with me and I notice what my body is needing- Then I learned how to soothe my autonomic nervous system and not go off with it. Mm. But also like cry or laugh- Mm or sing- Mm or dance or paint or write or knit- Mm or whatever uses your hands and makes your body work like that. They're simple things. Or hum.

Jean 27:19

Mm.

Helen 27:20

Just take a huge, big, deep breath in and make a humming noise really loudly, and feel the vibration in your body. You're become present. So any of these things are a beginning practice to being in the moment.

Jean 27:34

Mm.

Helen 27:35

But I'll tell you, one of the things I do that made me laugh, I've only really realized it, uh, in the last few years. When I feel anxious, I start moving the books in my bookcase. I st- I think I stack them from, in height down to short. Sometimes I turn them around and stack them from short up to high. And I notice some people put their books in colors. But what we're doing is making order externally, soothing your body on the inside when you think about it. Mm. It's learning these practices is teaching ourselves to moderate our nervous system reaction, and in fact, be able to work out a choice response instead of reaction.

Jean 28:20

And

Helen 28:21

they're- Does that answer the question?

Jean 28:22

Beautifully. And they're all about coming back into our body and out of our mind.

Helen 28:28

Yeah.

Jean 28:28

Yeah. Mm. Mm.

Helen 28:29

But every one of them, especially if you do anything physically.

Jean 28:33

Mm.

Helen 28:34

So I've always thought go for a walk, but here we have weather, so the go for a walk is, I don't want to go walk in the rain. But actually, I can walk backwards. Walking backward is really good for strengthening, but actually it makes you pay attention.

Jean 28:49

Mm.

Helen 28:50

Or jumping up and down on the spot, or doing all sorts of funny little weird exercises. I am here now. I'm here now with me, with this.

Jean 28:59

Mm.

Helen 29:00

Right? This is how you begin. Yeah. It, the, you realize that the whole practice of mindfulness sits on be of awareness of self- Mm and breath first and then.

Jean 29:11

Mm. Mm. Yeah. Mm.

Helen 29:13

Sounds so simple, but we somehow or other seem to have forgotten.

Jean 29:17

Yeah. I think I, um- I, I think our modern life has just decided that that's not what we should be doing. I mean, I, I've started going for walks without listening to something- Yeah 'cause I, you know, I listen to podcasts and audiobooks- Yeah and things all the time, and I really, really value that. Yesterday I went to the botanic gardens. As you know, I go there a lot. Mm. And I found a tree I'd never seen, which is... I can't believe I'd never seen. It's majestic. And I believe I found it because I was not listening. I wasn't distracted. I wasn't- Mm thinking. I was just being there, and-

Helen 29:54

You were in your body-

Jean 29:55

Mm

Helen 29:56

walking.

Jean 29:57

Yeah. And wow, I'll be going back to find that tree again. It was really a beautiful tree.

Helen 30:01

So I walk a lot around where I am, and I recognize... I walk with a friend, I'm totally engaged with her, and I get all my steps in. But I walk with thankfulness, I'm totally engaged in thankfulness. Mm. So the next time I go for a walk, I might say, "Today we might listen to something." I sometimes listen to you, to be honest, because I just adore you and I love the sound of your voice. And so I listen to a podcast when I'm walking, and I think I'm walking with Jean. I'd blow that we're so far away from each other. Yeah. So that's a, that's a gorgeous thing to do. But other times I choose an awareness walk. Just be present with what's here. I was walking in the lovely little local bush near me one day, and suddenly a bee sort of came rushing past, banged into my neck, and left a great deep sting in my neck, which I struggled to pull out. It gave me pause for thought, and I thought, I w- see, would that have happened if I'd been talking with somebody, if I'd been listening to something? I was so engaged with what was happening, boff, a bee said hello. It swelled my neck for quite a while, and that made me laugh. Mm. And that was just what was happening now. Yeah.

Jean 31:14

It was.

Helen 31:15

Yeah.

Jean 31:16

It was. Mm.

Moving From Victimhood To Self Kindness

Jean 31:24

I think we're probably... I'm gonna start asking. I think we're probably coming to the end. I'm wondering if there's anything else. So let me ask you that question. Mm-hmm. Um, so Helen, we're coming to the end of our conversation. I'm wondering if there's anything that you would like to share with us as we draw to a close.

Helen 31:45

Well, well, g- I was thinking when you asked me the first question earlier, what have I been noticing about people? And I said I've been noticing their autonomic nervous system reactions over which they feel they have no control. But the other thing I've noticed hugely, and which you and I have talked about in the past quite a bit, is the number of people who've sunk into victimhood. Why is this happening to me? think it's very hard to take these enormous worldwide international events that are happening and personalize them so much that you say, "Why is this happening to me?" But that's because that's also a trained survival mechanism. And, and a lot of people would call that, "I feel really sorry for myself right now." Um, eh, but I, I would call it the notion of your body calling you to recognize that you need attention. So why am I feeling sorry for myself right now? Because I actually might need to say, and you w- that I'm, uh, I'm in an unsafe place. You addressed it when you were talking in your podcast about worrying, actually naming worries. So when you name, "Oh, gosh, I'm really feeling quite frightened about that. I wonder if this could happen to me," a- and you stay present to it, and you breathe into it, and you offer yourself as much kindness and compassion, you stop stopping at, "Why me? Poor me. Why is this happening to me?" And you enter into, actually, this is a worldwide phenomenon. It's happening to so many of us. We need to say to each other, "I don't think I've ever felt this scared before," or, "I don't think I've ever felt this anxious, this frightened, this sadness, this fear for others." And when you name it like that, it stops being, "Gosh, I'm so frightened. Why is this happening to me?" And it becomes a worldwide conscious connectedness of, my body is asking for attention, and I've turned it into self-pity when in actual fact I could make it, "I'm with you. I'm here. I know that you're frightened." A- and the sentence that I quite often teach people is, even though I'm in the middle of all this fear, which is true, in the middle of this anxiety in my body, which right now is also true, I know that I can deeply connect with myself and others, offer kindness to them and to me, and there is safety in that, and thank God for it. So we're transforming the feeling of self-pity to, "Yes, I'm listening to you, Helen. I know that you need support right now." And we're instantly soothed, so we're back to the relationship with self. I feel like that's kind of important.

Jean 34:37

It's very important.

Helen 34:38

I think- The other thing that I started with, because you said, um, let's write things, because I know that you're a writer, and you know that I don't. It's so interesting. I know you write, and it's so helpful to you I remember years ago being tasked by one of my teachers with, "What's happening to you, Helen? I feel so sorry for myself right now." Self-pity, victimhood was a big stance for me. And she said to me, "I'm going to give you an A4 sheet of paper. Have you head it up, 'I feel so sorry for myself because...' Fill every line and bring it with you tomorrow." So I arrived with it tomorrow to our meeting, and she said before we even began, "Helen has something she's going to read out loud to us. Every line and every word, please." And I realized by the time I got to about point four of about what looked like however many lines there are, 25 lines, that really I was making mountains out of molehills and I was caught in my thinking, and that my body was asking for something. It was asking for my attention and my kindness. Mm. And I was telling the story of, it's not fair instead. So, so maybe that's another interesting way of learning how to start and to be present to ourselves. Not to despise the pity, but rather to see it as a call to the action of, "I'm with you, I care about you." And you'll notice that the self-pitying will dissolve much more quickly because you've paid attention to it with love. Yes.

Jean 36:14

Yeah. I love this. I, I, um, I think this connects to how I often talk about it would be self-compassion, but it, it is all of that. It's the kindness, it's the acknowledging, and it's not, um, it's not belittling the experience. It's saying, "Yes, this is hard, and yes, there's fear and, and it's there, and I'm going to be compassionate towards myself," and see that-

Helen 36:42

What a gift. I mean, what a gift. If mindfulness has taught me anything, it's that when you spend enough time being aware with yourself, you fall in love with yourself in the richest, nicest, kind of possible way. Enough so that you want to give it to others, right? That's compassion in action, is l- what love is really, isn't it? Mm. And self-kindness. So if we started there, we wouldn't have to indulge in, "I feel so sorry for myself." That's one of the great gifts of mindfulness practice to me. Even in the middle of the world being mighty chaotic right now and totally out of control. Mm. We, we aren't.

Jean 37:23

No.

Helen 37:24

We can find our center. We, we, we

Jean 37:24

are...

Helen 37:25

Yeah, we're in a place and where we're so centered in ourselves- Mm that actually we feel connected- Mm on every level. Mm. Yeah, because we've come home first. Yeah.

Key Takeaways And Closing Thanks

Jean 37:38

Helen, thank you so much. I am, am so grateful that we've, we've had this conversation. I feel very grounded uh, in this conversation, and I hope others listening too feel this possibility, this incredible hope which mindfulness brings us, this opportunity to be connected in with ourselves. And, and I love what you've just been saying, that when we do that, we're also better able to connect with others.

Helen 38:07

Mm.

Jean 38:07

It's a collective act. Mm. And that is very beautiful. And particularly at work, I believe people need this more now than ever. Thank you.

Helen 38:17

Oh, it's our humanness really, isn't it? We are all of those things.

Jean 38:22

Mm.

Helen 38:22

Yeah. Thanks, Jean. I've loved, of course, spending time in your company and your energy.